Actually they beat pretty much the whole Middle East and Israel has been around way before WWII before the diaspora of the Jews when King David and King Solomon ruled over the Hebrews. I'm also surprised they didn't add the babylonians with Hamurabi.pub hero said:
No Israel in Expansion Pack?
- Thread starter JoshuaOst
- Start date
mitsho
Deity
Well, there are more civs that deserve more a place (Babylon, Assyria, some European empires, the Maya, Khmer,Thai, ...), and then there rests the question to add the Hebrews or the Israelis (in this definition, the modern or the ancient version?). I would support the ancient version clearly which eliminates all the political questions... 
mitsho
mitsho
I'm not Jewish, but like the Gaels, there is a distinct Hebrew culture that survives today regardless of whether or not you consider Israel a nation. The Celts were included and the first official Celtic nation was the Republic of Ireland founded 1919. Just because a civ doesn't have a modern nation doesn't mean it shouldn't be included or that it wasn't influential.
Neither Israel or Scotland/Ireland are amongst the most important nations in terms of a military history, but I'm sick of people bashing possible expansion civs claiming that because they didn't win a war, or because they are a 'new' nation, they somehow aren't legitimate. People on the boards claim that the US shouldn't be a civ because they are 'too young' but American culture is one of if not the most influential cultures ever. Isn't the fact that there is a distinct Hebrew culture proof that they are civ worthy?
I realize that there is a debate as to who exactly 'the jews' are, but I don't think it matters what name the developers call them. 'The Celts' doesn't mean a damned thing but everyone gets who they're supposed to be. Judaism is a religion in the game. The Hebrews/Israelites are arguably one of the, if not the oldest civs ever. Why shouldn't the Israel/Jews/Hebrews or whatever name you want to call them be included? It makes no sense.
Neither Israel or Scotland/Ireland are amongst the most important nations in terms of a military history, but I'm sick of people bashing possible expansion civs claiming that because they didn't win a war, or because they are a 'new' nation, they somehow aren't legitimate. People on the boards claim that the US shouldn't be a civ because they are 'too young' but American culture is one of if not the most influential cultures ever. Isn't the fact that there is a distinct Hebrew culture proof that they are civ worthy?
I realize that there is a debate as to who exactly 'the jews' are, but I don't think it matters what name the developers call them. 'The Celts' doesn't mean a damned thing but everyone gets who they're supposed to be. Judaism is a religion in the game. The Hebrews/Israelites are arguably one of the, if not the oldest civs ever. Why shouldn't the Israel/Jews/Hebrews or whatever name you want to call them be included? It makes no sense.
Do you know the meaning of tact? Seriously man, you're going to get banned if you don't start at least pretending to be polite. Did it occur to you that maybe, just maybe, some people who are part of, or friends with, the nation of Israel wouldn't appreciate being called terrorists, especially when they are not?Inqvisitor said:
Keep your political slurs in the OT forum Inqvisitor.
Moderator Action: A simple 'reported post' will suffice.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Salamandre
King
Israel is a very controversial subject today (at least for european gouvernements it has NOTHING to do with racial difference, but political choice). As well as the Islamic religion. Firaxis said it once, they do no want to be involved in any political/racial views.
We are not naive, Firaxis decided to make religions same BECAUSE of the Islamic religion and its impact today. How could they describe this religion without beeing subjective and making dramatic errors from others point of view? They wanted a enjoyable game and we understand this, do we?
Why bring those threads when you know very well why is not going to happen?Do we need more explanation which will trigger closed threads and excesive flame?
We are not naive, Firaxis decided to make religions same BECAUSE of the Islamic religion and its impact today. How could they describe this religion without beeing subjective and making dramatic errors from others point of view? They wanted a enjoyable game and we understand this, do we?
Why bring those threads when you know very well why is not going to happen?Do we need more explanation which will trigger closed threads and excesive flame?
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 12,418
Salamandre said:
No I think ANY religion would have caused enough controversy, if they game only had the religions of Judaism and Christianity in it, there would be problems if they were different (there might be fewer problems if the only non-subjective religions were the non Western ones, but that is only because there are very few non Western buyers)
SilentDemon
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2006
- Messages
- 150
cuchulain said:
I'm sorry to be the nay-sayer here, but I have to be. Although Israel / Hebrews have been influential throughout history, as you have mentioned there is little to point at as far as a modern manifestation of their society, and even in past centuries a hebrew state is difficult to really find a focal point of. Since Civ points out not only the most influential societies throughout history, but those that are actually established governments, not just religious and cultural entities there are far better cantidates for civilizations to be acknowledged first. Like many I am not at all suprised that they haven't been introduced in the expansion, and doubt they ever will be. Celts are in many ways more appropriate as an example in this situation, as they have not only established cultural, religious, military and national heritages, but they have played an integral part of the european history. This is not to say that there haven't been empires in other parts of the world, but europe has had more than its fair share of warfare and empire building (Britain, Spain, France, Germany, Portugal, not to mention the celtic states throughout history.) Aside from obvious political, cultural and religious aspects, there have been numerous occasions by which irish / scottish were militarily involved with the aforementioned empires (all of us I am sure can recall hearing of irish / scottish regiments through many different wars, how many jewish / hebrew ones can be thought up outside of israel?) Unlike hebrews and jews "The Celts" actually referred to a large state of people who were actually all of the same basic nationality without a nation in *one focused* area of the world at many different points throughout history. Similarly to say Aryans before the founding of Germany / Prussia. Israel as a focused area of people of the jewish faith has only come to pass in recent history and in this time, they haven't been extremely influential as far as national / racial accomplishment.
vilemerchant
Prince
covok48 said:
the jews got kicked out of Judea what, 2000 years ago? It's arab culture that has dominated the middle-east for 2000 years, not jewish. Israel is a hoax of a nation that was only able to come into existance due to a momentary lapse in concentration by the international community brought about by the shame felt over the holocaust.
I mean seriously, how stupid would it be if half a million British anglo-saxons showed up in Germany next week and announced that since Saxons were in Germany 2000 years ago they have the right to create a new country there?
HourlyDaily
Man-o-Mercy
I'm sorry but there's no point having a big sook because your civ of choice didn't make it in. This Israel in Civ thing never stops. Don't take it out on my Celt heritage especially if you aren't that knowledgeable about it. I agree with Silent Demon's post in terms of Celt influence. I'm sorry if you are upset that Israel lost an apparently secret popularity contest.
Remember there are good quality fan mods out there with Israel in it.
Remember there are good quality fan mods out there with Israel in it.
Xineoph
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2004
- Messages
- 338
Ah yes, Because the Celts have been in power for so much longer. The Celts are on par with Israel. Difference is, the Hebrew culture continued.
And don't fool yourself vilemerchant, Israel would come to being no matter what, the British were getting tired of the fighting and left it among the Jews and Arabs, and as history shows the Jews won and thats why there's a nation there today.
And don't fool yourself vilemerchant, Israel would come to being no matter what, the British were getting tired of the fighting and left it among the Jews and Arabs, and as history shows the Jews won and thats why there's a nation there today.
vilemerchant said:
Wow. You display a stunning lack of historical knowledge here.
The "arabs" didn't really begin their rapid expansion until around 1000 AD. In addition, the Islamic faith and culture was most rapidly spread not by the Arabs but instead by the Seljuk Turks, who founded the Ottoman Sultanate which was eventually to conquer Constantinople. However... that didn't occur until 1453. It was barely a backwoods "state" in 1400.
The Hebrew nation was a moderately influential, militarily successful state for several hundred years BC. It was conquered by the Romans but not fully assimiliated and was a hotbed of revolt and unrest for the vast majority of the era. In fact, both the Jewish festival of Chanuka and the Christian faith are descendants of various resistance by Hebrews against the Romans.
Following the Maccabean Revolt, which took nearly 50 years to put down, the Romans, being extremely effecient at destroying revolts, forcibly removed the Hebrews from Judea and Canaan and spread them in small clusters around the Empire, hoping that by spreading them far and wide they would end Hebrew culture altogether.
Following the Diaspora, the area was mainly settled by Romans, Phoenicians, and some small few Arabs. By 600 AD, Upper Judea (modern Lebanon) was a Christian land, and the lower area was mainly dominated by pagans. Following the foundation of Islam in the mid 800s, the Muslim faith also spread west, however the "Arabs" were not a very expansionist civilization, instead their religion spread itself across several tribes, including Turks, Mongols, Seljuks, etc.
The area was finally conquered and included in the Ottoman Empire during the Oriental Crisis of the mid 1800s. Prior to that it was owned by the Mameluk (and before that Fatmid) Dynasty of Egypt for the previous 500 years.
Modern Israel's roots begin in the mid 1800s with the foundation of the Zionist movement, which believed in resettling the "traditional" Hebrew lands.
Since I'm not sure of board policy of discussion beyond this, I'll leave the "even more modern" part off.
Suffice to say, the Hebrews and Turks deserve to be included in the game MUCH more than the Arabs. And the Egyptians should really have another leader besides the Pharoahs, one for medieval egypt, such as a Fatimid or Mameluke ruler.
Salamandre
King
(not a fake but my actual game)
HourlyDaily
Man-o-Mercy
Antiochus said:
I'm incapable of letting this just go so I'm sorry...
The Celts may have been an ancient tribe, much in the same way as the ancient Hebrews. While the Hebrews had a common religion which tied them together, the Celts held a much more lose group of ties but were essentially the same.
Now if the descendants of those Hebrews are modern day Jews, the descendants of Celtic tribes are the Irish, Highland Scots, Welsh as well as some in Brittany and Galicia. These people can identify themselves as Celts. Look through the history of rulers and great people up until modern times all from Celtic stock.
There is very little difference in comparing the two. In fact the state of Ireland has a much longer history as existing country rather than a people than the Jewish state. These are only a few basic arguments of many that I have.
There is room for all, there is even room for Canada and Sealand for those who want it.
Sorry HourlyDaily, but your information on the Celts seem to be woefully out of date, academically speaking. Investigate any modern ancient history/archaeological textbook and 'Celticity' boils down to no more than retrojection on the behalf of the Romans and cultural imperialism in the 19th century. The term 'Celt' is applied through the existence of an artisitc form which represents no more a coherent people than my ownership of a Nintendo makes me Japanese.
Nevertheless, I understand their reason for inclusion and accept that many aspects of a game require 'shorthand' solutions. Cf. the very inclusion of barbarians.
I dare say this thread should be put to bed by the mods given the turn it is taking. The 'terrorist' comment in particular was offensive, suffice to say I'm not even Jewish and this sort of thing is something I don't like seeing.
Nevertheless, I understand their reason for inclusion and accept that many aspects of a game require 'shorthand' solutions. Cf. the very inclusion of barbarians.
I dare say this thread should be put to bed by the mods given the turn it is taking. The 'terrorist' comment in particular was offensive, suffice to say I'm not even Jewish and this sort of thing is something I don't like seeing.
azzaman333
meh
No to Israel, yes to Babylon or Sumeria.
