No Israel in Expansion Pack?

[Pounder]

Yes to Sumeria, anything else is pre-historic.

Sumeria being the oldest Civ with records should have been in the Vanilla version of Civ 4.

 

[Salamandre]

I dare say this thread should be put to bed by the mods given the turn it is taking. The 'terrorist' comment in particular was offensive, suffice to say I'm not even Jewish and this sort of thing is something I don't like seeing.

I think is more dangerous to close a thread about Israel because ONE person used a exagerated word. Very nice to hear how great and influent was Israel in the past, but if we have to put real words on what it is doing right now,it would hurt many people, isnt' it? And I am not at all a hater, but an objective european observator.

The world is sick, and we could become even more sick if we had to censure always ourselves.

 

[DarkOpus]

I was more thinking of a warning by the mods to the person spouting the nonsense, rather than closing the thread. Agreed that my post didn't make that clear. Good points, incidentally.

 

[naterator]

settle down, people, let's not forget that if not for the terrorist actions of a few bostonians, all us americans may still be speaking (gasp) english today! terrorism is just a buzz word, like "weapons of mass destruction", genghis khan utilized an organized campaign of terror and mass destruction in his campaign, and is rewarded with an excellent looking scenario in the expansion pack. now i'm not condoning terrorism, but historically, it gets the job done.

 

[zeeter]

Why would anyone be sadly disapointed that Israel isn't in the game? They've never been in the game before. There's never been any discussion of them being in the game. There likely isn't a specific reason as to why they're not in the game. They're just not there in the same way that Argentina isn't in the game. For the same reason that Siam isn't in the game. And Australia. My God - they can't put EVERY civilizaton in the game.

 

[Xanikk999]

Wow. You display a stunning lack of historical knowledge here.

The "arabs" didn't really begin their rapid expansion until around 1000 AD. In addition, the Islamic faith and culture was most rapidly spread not by the Arabs but instead by the Seljuk Turks, who founded the Ottoman Sultanate which was eventually to conquer Constantinople. However... that didn't occur until 1453. It was barely a backwoods "state" in 1400.

The Hebrew nation was a moderately influential, militarily successful state for several hundred years BC. It was conquered by the Romans but not fully assimiliated and was a hotbed of revolt and unrest for the vast majority of the era. In fact, both the Jewish festival of Chanuka and the Christian faith are descendants of various resistance by Hebrews against the Romans.

Following the Maccabean Revolt, which took nearly 50 years to put down, the Romans, being extremely effecient at destroying revolts, forcibly removed the Hebrews from Judea and Canaan and spread them in small clusters around the Empire, hoping that by spreading them far and wide they would end Hebrew culture altogether.

Following the Diaspora, the area was mainly settled by Romans, Phoenicians, and some small few Arabs. By 600 AD, Upper Judea (modern Lebanon) was a Christian land, and the lower area was mainly dominated by pagans. Following the foundation of Islam in the mid 800s, the Muslim faith also spread west, however the "Arabs" were not a very expansionist civilization, instead their religion spread itself across several tribes, including Turks, Mongols, Seljuks, etc.

The area was finally conquered and included in the Ottoman Empire during the Oriental Crisis of the mid 1800s. Prior to that it was owned by the Mameluk (and before that Fatmid) Dynasty of Egypt for the previous 500 years.

Modern Israel's roots begin in the mid 1800s with the foundation of the Zionist movement, which believed in resettling the "traditional" Hebrew lands.

Since I'm not sure of board policy of discussion beyond this, I'll leave the "even more modern" part off.

Suffice to say, the Hebrews and Turks deserve to be included in the game MUCH more than the Arabs. And the Egyptians should really have another leader besides the Pharoahs, one for medieval egypt, such as a Fatimid or Mameluke ruler.

Your wrong again. The arab expansion begun after islam spread throughout the middle east in the middle of the 7th century. Thats when they expanded towards europe and africa.

 

[Duuk]

Your wrong again. The arab expansion begun after islam spread throughout the middle east in the middle of the 7th century. Thats when they expanded towards europe and africa.

The "arab" expansion east was mostly due to Persian influence, not arabic.

The "arab" expansion west was mainly north african tribals.

Arab influence was mainly "religious cultural spread" rather than "civilization spread", although there is an argument to be made for the north african/iberian expansion being more cultural/civilization than just religion.

Islam's spread during its 1st 200 years is a huge mess, and schisms and religious warfare was internicene and brutal until the mid 800s.

However, give Islam credit. It's spread was epochal and unprecedented.

 

[cuchulain]

I'm incapable of letting this just go so I'm sorry...

The Celts may have been an ancient tribe, much in the same way as the ancient Hebrews. While the Hebrews had a common religion which tied them together, the Celts held a much more lose group of ties but were essentially the same.

Now if the descendants of those Hebrews are modern day Jews, the descendants of Celtic tribes are the Irish, Highland Scots, Welsh as well as some in Brittany and Galicia. These people can identify themselves as Celts. Look through the history of rulers and great people up until modern times all from Celtic stock.

There is very little difference in comparing the two. In fact the state of Ireland has a much longer history as existing country rather than a people than the Jewish state. These are only a few basic arguments of many that I have.

There is room for all, there is even room for Canada and Sealand for those who want it.

With a name like Cu Chullain, I obviously am for the inclusion of the Gaels; I too am very proud of my heritage, but the Celts were in no way whatsoever a cohesive entity. Counties and clans weren't cohesive, let alone the entire territories of Ireland and Scotland. All of the 'Gaelic lands' differ greatly in terms of language and politics and for all we know they always have. Early 20th century rehotricians may tell you other wise, but don't beleive the hype.

The modern people in Ireland, Scotland, and Britany are not the 'mysitcal pure blooded Celts' of legend. Centuries of invaders like the Vikings, British, Franks, English (depending on the area of focus) have changed their ethinicity. But the point remains that the Gaels still have a distinct culture.
The Hebrews are no different.

Also, my point about Ireland wan't that I don't consider them a state but that they weren't recognized until recently. (they too were considered a terrorist movement not that long ago) I'm proud to be Irish, but Ireland had been subject to England since the 12th century, it wasn't until 1919 that they regained independence. Israel was subjugated earlier and than the modern state Israel was founded in 1948; there isn't a huge difference.

Again, I understand that some people don't like the idea of the state of Israel, which is why I say 'just call them Hebrews' or something of that nature.
I won't respond to claims that the Hebrew people haven't contributed anything major to the world's collective culture... it's called the old testament and three of the world major religions depend on it...

 

[Bongo-Bongo]

I'd imagine a lot of the reason Israel aren't included in the expansion pack is due to any impact they might have on sales, not for political or religous reasons, but for how well known they are. The Carthaginians, Celts, Vikings, Turks, Zulus and Koreans are well known with most people, however little knowledge of history they have where as Israel isn't. A random member of the public, with little knowledge of history, is more likely to be drawn to the product if he sees something in the game that he recognises then something he doesn't.

 

[picardathon]

the jews got kicked out of Judea what, 2000 years ago? It's arab culture that has dominated the middle-east for 2000 years, not jewish. Israel is a hoax of a nation that was only able to come into existance due to a momentary lapse in concentration by the international community brought about by the shame felt over the holocaust.

I mean seriously, how stupid would it be if half a million British anglo-saxons showed up in Germany next week and announced that since Saxons were in Germany 2000 years ago they have the right to create a new country there?

If you hadn't noticed, the international community VOTED Israel into existence because the Jews and Arabs in Palestine were tearing each others throats out and the British were unable to handle the issue, but the nation of Israel was accepted by the UN then created, it isn't like Ben-Gurion and friends started any form of offensive, rather, the arabs immediately decided to send their armies in and, after a 4 week UN armistice and some elbow grease, Israel came back and crushed their opponents so it was THEY who were crying to the UN.
Zionism was an idea started in the late 19th century, based off of the fact that the Jews would NEVER give up, and their abuse through out the centuies by the european christians gave them an iron strong collective will and a longing to create a place where they had a right to life and worship. Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir, Moshe Dayan, and everyone else truly responsible for the creation of Israel came in the early 1900's. The bombing of the King David hotel and other acts have often been interpreted by the uninformed as being the official actions of Israel, when in reality they were in fact the actions of fringe terrorists such as Menachim Begin who only came to power on a wave of incredible luck.

 

[Antiochus]

However, give Islam credit. It's spread was epochal and unprecedented.

And violent. What has changed...?

 

[JCricket]

What I don't get, is how purely a gameplay question became a political one. It's simply ridiculous. And the people, who make it an inappropriate aren't the developers but the commentators here.
There a lot of nation which deserve to be represented in the game, but due to technical limitations will have to wait to expansions. The list is too long to mention. Let's not be arrogant and consider one nation being more important and contributive to human history than another. Firaxis' main purpose is to make money by approaching maximum available public, which unfortunately, is arrogant and sometimes even ignorant. So including Israel in the vanilla version of the game or even in expansion packs can be problematic from PR point of view and decrease their profits. So I don't believe we'll see Israel any time soon, but the problem really isn't Firaxis but its customers.

 

[puglover]

Israel had a huge influence on modern culture and society, but I don't think they had enough political influence in the world to be a Civ. I say we leave it to modders.

 

[cuchulain]

What I don't get, is how purely a gameplay question became a political one. It's simply ridiculous. And the people, who make it an inappropriate aren't the developers but the commentators here.
There a lot of nation which deserve to be represented in the game, but due to technical limitations will have to wait to expansions. The list is too long to mention. Let's not be arrogant and consider one nation being more important and contributive to human history than another. Firaxis' main purpose is to make money by approaching maximum available public, which unfortunately, is arrogant and sometimes even ignorant. So including Israel in the vanilla version of the game or even in expansion packs can be problematic from PR point of view and decrease their profits. So I don't believe we'll see Israel any time soon, but the problem really isn't Firaxis but its customers.

This is a thread dedicated to the advocacy of getting Israel into the game in the expansion, it has nothing to do with considering Israel a superior nation. I don't see why we shouldn't discuss the issue; it has nothing to do with arrogance.
Are there other civs that should be included? Obviously; Canada and Austraila to name but two, but that shouldn't keep us from discussing the issue of a Jewish civ. There are over 13 million Jews in the world; I think that qualifies as a large potential market...

 

[QuoVadisNation]

Totally, because Jews remain distinct from Americans, Europeans, and Asians. It's also common knowledge that they collectively purchase everything.

Guys, over reacting to the fact that Israel wasn't included only shows how oversensitive some people can be. Read a book by Marx and Engles and then re-think why some of you guys care so much.

It's just a game, gawd.

edit: I should add that I honestly don't care about Israel not being included. I can only assume Firxas decided to remain politcally neutral rather than turn people off. For an international best seller, It's just bad business!

 

[cuchulain]

I don't mean to sound sensitive; I'll buy the expansion whether or not Jews are included. As far as your comment about 'Jews buying everything,' I do think there is a distinct jewish culture, all jokes aside. You might disagree, but I think plenty of people agree with me. I'm not trying to make this a PC issue; I just find it odd that Judaism is included but not any Jewish civ.

 

[JCricket]

This is a thread dedicated to the advocacy of getting Israel into the game in the expansion, it has nothing to do with considering Israel a superior nation. I don't see why we shouldn't discuss the issue; it has nothing to do with arrogance.
Are there other civs that should be included? Obviously; Canada and Austraila to name but two, but that shouldn't keep us from discussing the issue of a Jewish civ. There are over 13 million Jews in the world; I think that qualifies as a large potential market...

Hi, cuchulain! I guess, I just failed to clarify my point of view, since English isn't my first language. I'm sorry .
QuoVadisNation summarized the exact thing I tried to say much better. And that's true that 13 million Jews around the world will be pleased to see their nation included, but there over a billion Muslims, who may not like it. And I really don't try to create any sort of argument and trying really hard to be politically correct, and so Firaxis does.
I never told you shouldn't discuss the issue, but do it in the gameplay terms and not in the political/religious terms. We all have enough of it in the reality. IMHO, the comparison between "importances" of the different nations, which took place in few posts, is not what this thread is about. Being an Israeli makes me feel, my country is the most contributive of them all, but I also aware, that anyone from USA, China, Papua New Guinea, Ukraine or any other place on the planet feels the same. That's what I meant by "arrogance". I personally want Israel to be included, but can live without it and don't want to overreact this. I don't play Civ to recreate history or simulate politics and measure the overall influence of the nations, but just for fun. I absolutely don't care what the name of the Civ I play is (and it's really only a name). Call it Mammals if you like .

 

[wongasta]

when did hebrews ever create a "civilization"?

 

[meatwad4289]

Wait wait wait...


There is no representation for the Isrealis. I mean Arabs have Saladine, Africans have that guy(lol im sorry i cant remember his name) of Mali, Asians have Toka(forgot the rest) of Japan. Hispanics have Spain, Native Americans/Mexicans have Montezuma. But nothing for the Jews? No offense to anyone, Isreal would be a good civ, ESPECIALLY with the Vassalage State, Seeing as how they were forced under the rule of many diffrent empires, so it kind of works. To hell with politics and people being offended, IM OFFENDED BY PEOPLE BEING OFFENDED! (even tho i offend myself with that lol) Enough of this whole minority saying "you cant do that" and getting their way, Majority is suppose to always win, yet it fails. Is it wrong to include Isreal no. Why shouldn't we? It's rich in history! Hell Judiahism was founded by them, so WHY NOT??? We can put Stalin in the game, and he slaughtered his own people, we can't put Isrealis in because of todays politics? Because we don't want to offend? Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Expression are being trampled upon by these people who say "lets not offend." Isreal has every right to be in the game, just as Canada, Just as Australia, just as the various other countries being left out. To say it is not a good idea for political reasons is utterly ridiculous. It's not in there because it probably won't sell unless you add hitler. Why's that? Because I know if you add Hitler to a game like Civ it will outsell the last one, why? Everyone wants to go against Hitler, Hell i wanna fight him. If you add isreal instead it wont sell as much, if you add both, people will buy the expansion just to see how Hitler and Isreal will get along. Am i wrong? Who here wants Hitler? Who here wants Isreal? Who here wants to see Isreal destroy Germany in an ironic fashion, or hell who wants to see a permanite Alliance between Hitler and Isreal? Come on! it would sell... perhaps Civ5 or Civ4:World At War

 

[KrikkitTwo]

"You are drunk, Mr. Churchill."
"Yes madam, and you are ugly. And tomorrow I will not be drunk but you, madam, will still be ugly."
Winston Churchill .

Actually I believe the correct quote is

"Yes madam, and you are ugly. But tomorrow I will be sober."

(little more implication in the joke)