No Israel in Expansion Pack?

[zeeter]

Can we move this to off-topic since it has absolutely no relevance to the game?

 

[Older than Dirt]

We should be thankful that they developers have not included Israel as a nation. They'd just screw it up. Better left to mods. Better still change the name of Civ 4 to Goyim 4. Actually, without God working through Israel there would be no civilizations at all - we'd still be sacrificing people to demons to try and appease their anger and doing whatever we could get away with. "Civilization" is a thin veneer over the basic wickedness of all of mankind. (This ain't my made up brain fart - I got it real clear from reading all of the Hebrew scriptures 20+ times. Read it and weep.)

 

[Graadiapolistan]

I personally think that putting Israel in as a a nation would over-represent a group of people and that there are other nations that should be included first. I think that most Jews would consider themselves American or Russian or English or whatever country they live in as opposed to their own country. Historical Israel's (the ancient Hebrews') contributions to the world are already represented with Judeism being in the game (even if that's under-represnting the Jews, most ethnic groups are under-represented in civ4). I think that there were civilizations omitted that should be in the game more than the Hebrews. Modern Israel should probably only be put in after these civs are added:
Korea, Ghana, the Mayans, Turkey (the Ottoman Turks), Byzantium, Canada, Australia, Austria-Hungary, the Iriqois (North America needs to have more civs in order to play a good Earth map), The Netherlands, Tibet, Sumeria, and there are quite a few more.
By the way, the Germanic people were quite influential during Pax Romana and so were the Celts. The Germanic people can't be included because they make up many European nations today (and share a name with Germany). The Celts are also included in the game by including their ancestral lands (basically France) and Ireland (Great Britain). I think that adding the Celts would be overkill, the game is Eurocentric enough.

 

[Sharule]

Israel is obviously a heated topic, we've had Anti-semites in here, Anti-Celts, Anti-Arabs and a lot of badly thought out statements.
Israel is obviously very important to a lot of people, Its important to me because Im Jewish, and I feel that Im part Israeli, because everyone wants some place to call home, and even though I love America, there is Anti-Semitism here, but because of Israel I know I will always have some place to go, for a Holiday or if there is persecution(G-d forbid). Biblically all Jews consider Ancient Israel to be somewhat of a Utopia, the perfect Jewish society that all Jewish Societies should try to emulate.
Israel is the birth place of the Abrahamic religions, making Israel's religious culture belong to Christians(33% of Humanity) and Muslims(25% of humanity). The Qur'an and the Christian Bible both mention Israel as well as some of the ancient leaders such as Abraham, Moses, David and Solomon.
Im obviously biased, but then again so is everyone.
I support the Celts being in the expansion, I support the Arabs being a civ.
Im still disapointed that Israel was not included.

But C'est la vie, as the Romans say.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

jews always was under someone, even their state was allowed to be, in my opinion just for purpose of shifting arab's attention and war efforts to jews. They never were powerful state, just a province.

 

[DarkOpus]

I didn't spot any anti-Celts.

 

[3 EMS]

They should just add the ability to put in a/some custom civs. Not just the ability to edit xml files but right there in the custom game setup screen. Anybody could be anyone they wanted.

 

[Salamandre]

Israel is obviously a heated topic, we've had Anti-semites in here, Anti-Celts, Anti-Arabs and a lot of badly thought out statements.

Can you point/quote where you read antisemites and anti arabs posts here before provoking? It is not because some people are critics against israel TODAY that they are anti semites. There are people critics against France, USA, and many other. But only those against Israel are finger pointed as beeing racist. Is there easier for you to ignore a critic by telling it is racist or what?!

 

[3 EMS]

Can you point/quote where you read antisemites and anti arabs posts here before provoking? It is not because some people are critics against israel TODAY that they are anti semites. There are people critics against France, USA, and many other. But only those against Israel are finger pointed as beeing racist. Is there easier for you to ignore a critic by telling it is racist or what?!

I don't think this is racism. That is, being against a nationality or religion is not racism. Treating a particular race differently is.

 

[Perfect_Blue]

Judaism is in the game. If you want Israel, mod it. Otherwise I think the majority are fine with it being left out (for any number of reasons, most notably Israeli aggression).

Jeez, don't you folks get tired of making Israel threads everywhere? At least the Canadians aren't so annoying.

 

[Sharule]

Originally Posted by Inqvisitor
Thank God, I can purchase this expansion without having terrorist groups with zero impact on civilization included as civs. Maybe add in a barbarian tribe "Israelis?"

Originally posted by Antiochus
I think the Israelites are a more significant civilisation than the Celts, who would almost fit the definition of barbarians by civilisation standards.

Originally posted by Antiochus
(Islam's spread is epochal, unprecedented) And violent. What has changed...?

Being called Terrorists, Barbarians and the like is not exactly what Id call free love.

 

[Salamandre]

Except the first post who was deleted by mods (beeing too sarcastic?) the two others doesnt fit in hate category. If I describe someone beeing aggressive that doesnt mean I hate him, but that I dont agree/I fear/stay far from him. For legitimate reasons.

The two following posts I read are true. From an european civilizated point of view they are damnt true. About the Celts, Arabs and Israel. No hate here, but disagreement. That doesnt means they are inferior or whatever. Arabs and Hebrews created a lot of exceptional artworks for the humanity, and they are outstanding. But they are also controversial subject in the whole world due to the lack of compassion and humanity of their gouvernements.

 

[meatwad4289]

Warlords brings us Vassalage. Isreal has been under the rule of many countries. Thus..a Vassal State. it fits in./

 

[Ankenaton]

Wow. You display a stunning lack of historical knowledge here.

The "arabs" didn't really begin their rapid expansion until around 1000 AD. In addition, the Islamic faith and culture was most rapidly spread not by the Arabs but instead by the Seljuk Turks, who founded the Ottoman Sultanate which was eventually to conquer Constantinople. However... that didn't occur until 1453. It was barely a backwoods "state" in 1400.

The Hebrew nation was a moderately influential, militarily successful state for several hundred years BC. It was conquered by the Romans but not fully assimiliated and was a hotbed of revolt and unrest for the vast majority of the era. In fact, both the Jewish festival of Chanuka and the Christian faith are descendants of various resistance by Hebrews against the Romans.

Following the Maccabean Revolt, which took nearly 50 years to put down, the Romans, being extremely effecient at destroying revolts, forcibly removed the Hebrews from Judea and Canaan and spread them in small clusters around the Empire, hoping that by spreading them far and wide they would end Hebrew culture altogether.

Following the Diaspora, the area was mainly settled by Romans, Phoenicians, and some small few Arabs. By 600 AD, Upper Judea (modern Lebanon) was a Christian land, and the lower area was mainly dominated by pagans. Following the foundation of Islam in the mid 800s, the Muslim faith also spread west, however the "Arabs" were not a very expansionist civilization, instead their religion spread itself across several tribes, including Turks, Mongols, Seljuks, etc.

The area was finally conquered and included in the Ottoman Empire during the Oriental Crisis of the mid 1800s. Prior to that it was owned by the Mameluk (and before that Fatmid) Dynasty of Egypt for the previous 500 years.

Modern Israel's roots begin in the mid 1800s with the foundation of the Zionist movement, which believed in resettling the "traditional" Hebrew lands.

Since I'm not sure of board policy of discussion beyond this, I'll leave the "even more modern" part off.

Suffice to say, the Hebrews and Turks deserve to be included in the game MUCH more than the Arabs. And the Egyptians should really have another leader besides the Pharoahs, one for medieval egypt, such as a Fatimid or Mameluke ruler.

Good reply. Though I disagree with the last part. I believe that in Civ the cultures should be represented reflective of their greatest glories. Egypt (e.g. Khemet) of the Pharoahs (at the height of their power and during their centuries long decline) was significantly different from the vassal states from about 600 B.C. onward. Therefore leaders such as Rameses and Hatshepsut are far more representative of Ancient Egypt than Cleopatra or any medieval ruling family.

 

[Koheleth]

Israel is a very controversial subject today (at least for european gouvernements it has NOTHING to do with racial difference, but political choice). As well as the Islamic religion. Firaxis said it once, they do no want to be involved in any political/racial views.

Israel is a controversial subject today only because the world is filled with Jew haters, and cowards who are afraid of Jew haters. Firaxis should be ashame that they caved into the baser insticts of bigots by never including Israel/Hebrews in any game (while including, at one time or another, many far less influential civs -- from the Zulus to the Hittites).

 

[Koheleth]

Israel as a focused area of people of the jewish faith has only come to pass in recent history and in this time, they haven't been extremely influential as far as national / racial accomplishment.

Are you on crack? Ancient Israel was independant for about 800 years (roughly 1350 to 586 b.c.e.)!!! Then from about 500-150, Israel was a largely autonomous part of the Persian & Greek empires (think Puerto Rico). Then it was independant again for 100 years (2nd Commonwealth under the Maccabees/Hasmoneans), before Rome conquered it.

Learn your history.

 

[Shibsta]

Maybe in 200 years when "Civilization L" comes out your great grandchildren might be able to enjoy playing as Israel.

 

[Salamandre]

Israel is a controversial subject today only because the world is filled with Jew haters, and cowards who are afraid of Jew haters. Firaxis should be ashame that they caved into the baser insticts of bigots by never including Israel/Hebrews in any game (while including, at one time or another, many far less influential civs -- from the Zulus to the Hittites).

I am very glad that this thread went so far without beeing censured/closed by mods. Mainly because it keept some high historic accuracy and friendly points of view;


I would answer that the world is filled today with paranoiac people who believe everyone hate them without asking one second if what they do/act fit into the high standard human values they pretend to have, due to their old and rich history. It is easier to put always themselves in the role of a victim than accept that maybe dramatic errors can be corrected.

The arrogance doesnt lead anywhere.


PS: In Creation and Customization forums there are "Israel flag", "Israel mod", "Israel leaderhead" and NOBODY left any aggressive coment, but all people are happy with it. Where are the haters?

 

[Antiochus]

when did hebrews ever create a "civilization"?

When did the Zulus? Or to a lesser extent, the Celts and Mongols?

 

[QuoVadisNation]

I would answer that the world is filled today with paranoiac people who believe everyone hate them without asking one second if what they do/act fit into the high standard human values they pretend to have, due to their old and rich history. It is easier to put always themselves in the role of a victim than accept that maybe dramatic errors can be corrected.

Quoted for emphasis and didactic purposes.