No Israel in Expansion Pack?

[Xineoph]

What about the Greeks? Ever since the rise of the Roman empire, they have never been a nation either. Their culture was all over the empire, much like the Jewish culture continued, but the Greeks appeared in the game.

I know that people know Alexander the Great as much as they know Solomon the Wise.

Maybe we should get rid of the Greeks then? I mean they are a new nation as well, having only appeared in 1830.

 

[Salamandre]

So, Platon, Aristote and Homer are born in 1830

 

[SLM]

Why isn't Israel in the game?? Why isn't The Netherlands in the game? Why isn't Portugal? Why are there 2 american leaders to chose from? Why isn't at least one of them native american?

The answer would probably be: for commercial / marketing reasons and furthermore, being politically correct is also in ones commercial interest. There are undoubtably a lot of jewish people around the world, but to include it in the vanilla version without including some other major civ's first, would not be prudent.

PS
And don't think that everyone who doesn't like Israel, also doesn't like jews. Big difference there you know. Israel is a nation with politcal leaders. One can be for, against or indifferent to their political decisions without hating jewish people at all.

 

[atreas]

What about the Greeks? Ever since the rise of the Roman empire, they have never been a nation either. Their culture was all over the empire, much like the Jewish culture continued, but the Greeks appeared in the game.

I know that people know Alexander the Great as much as they know Solomon the Wise.

Maybe we should get rid of the Greeks then? I mean they are a new nation as well, having only appeared in 1830.

I agree with your main idea (I believe it was sarcastic), although you completely forget the extend in which the Byzantine empire after the 7th-8th century was a de facto Greek empire - so you could speak about 2 "empire" periods (ancient and ~650-1453 AD).

But your point is well taken: I have also seen some purists that claim as important thing the political continuity. I had always the impression that this idea was so much ill-concieved and tailored to fit only to modern empires that is completely worthless. How can anyone claim as important the continuity of political power for 6000 years? No nation achieved that in history (even China was conquered, in more than one occassions).

On the thread issue: I wouldn't mind at all seeing the Jews in the game, although I miss other nations more. I don't overrate their influence in the world (to be fair, they really became widely known after Christianity "inherited" the Bible) nor the strength of their ancient kingdom, but ANY nation with existence for so many milleniums is a realistic candidate for civ games.

 

[Older than Dirt]

As a gentile, I hate to think where our "civilization" would be without the descendants of Jacob (Israel). We'd probably still be burning people alive in cages, making bone fires, and otherwise sucking up to demons out of fear as did my benighted ancestors. Do you really want to have the likes of Hitler, Stalins, and Idi Amin running every country? (I know, you will say: "Idi Amin wasn't so bad, there were plenty of people he didn't eat and it wasn't like he ate a lot of Europeans.") The righteous holy creator God revealed Himself and His Law through the Israelites. Remember, "If there is no God, everything is permissible."

 

[sela1s1son]

I think Hebrews would be better then Israel. I think the Arabs and Hebrews should BOTH be included.

I do not think the Hebrews/Israelis should be excluded for "political correctness" as then every civilization would be excluded (Mongols running over how many towns an destroying them? The Romans conquering the known world of the time? Germans due to a couple decades? All the civs that had slaves at some point? Spain due to thier conquests in the Americas?) Not that all civs are equally as guilty of crimes (due to any number of reasons, including age of the Civilization). I think the Hebrews (as opposed to modern Israel) would cause less controversy... as it is an ancient civ that we have less of an association with (the civilization... as opposed to the people). One could say the same thing with the Arabs, as I feel the Arab "civ" in the game represents the (700 AD - 1300 AD era) of Arabic history (yes, they were expanding militarly), but they also had a great Golden Age and contributed much to Mankind in that era. Heck, they preserved the works of the Greek/Roman writes/philosophers. However if it had been say... Modern Saudi Arabia or Modern Iraq... people would've been much more likely to get upset... but the 'ancient' Arabs are more seperated from our own time and we look to more how significant they were in human history (which is on the level of the Romans, Greeks, Chinese, etc).

I'm very much in favor of having the Hebrews in the game, defined by thier ancient civilization. Even a conquered people can qualify as a 'nation' if not a country... so I think even when ruled by other civilizations (benelovent and malevolent) they still qualify as thier own civilization in many ways. Before people go nuts calling me "anti-arab" or "zionist" or whatever other names they come up with... I'd feel the same way if the Arabs had been excluded, and I must say they chose a great leader for the Arabs (I'd been bothered if they didn't include Saladin)!

I'm also disapointed the Babylonians were excluded, and I'd like a North American native civ... but I think the Hebrews or Babylonians would be the top two for the next expansions civs.

 

[Salamandre]

As a gentile, I hate to think where our "civilization" would be without the descendants of Jacob (Israel). We'd probably still be burning people alive in cages, making bone fires, and otherwise sucking up to demons out of fear as did my benighted ancestors. Do you really want to have the likes of Hitler, Stalins, and Idi Amin running every country? (I know, you will say: "Idi Amin wasn't so bad, there were plenty of people he didn't eat and it wasn't like he ate a lot of Europeans.") The righteous holy creator God revealed Himself and His Law through the Israelites. Remember, "If there is no God, everything is permissible."

You smoked or what? I have to remind you that TODAY, in the name of GOD (some entity which has never proved its existence btw) people burns in cage, are beheaded, explose them selves and such many atrocities.And they speak exactly like you...


What does god coming in this thread? I would quote you differently:if there is GOD, everything is permissible because not under humanity laws. That is what sucks today. The notion of god must get rid off and minimized. We are alone, and it is in our power to destroy ourselves or to survive; God, if ever existed, forgot us.Look around you and constate.

 

[Koheleth]

Why isn't Israel in the game?? Why isn't The Netherlands in the game? Why isn't Portugal? Why are there 2 american leaders to chose from? Why isn't at least one of them native american?

The answer would probably be: for commercial / marketing reasons and furthermore, being politically correct is also in ones commercial interest. There are undoubtably a lot of jewish people around the world, but to include it in the vanilla version without including some other major civ's first, would not be prudent.

PS
And don't think that everyone who doesn't like Israel, also doesn't like jews. Big difference there you know. Israel is a nation with politcal leaders. One can be for, against or indifferent to their political decisions without hating jewish people at all.

And we're talking about an expansion pack.... as evidenced by this thread, there are a lot of people who really want the Hebrews/Israel in the game (I personally think calling the civ "Hebrews" but including some modern city names works best) and who won't by the expansion pack without it -- such as myself. Far more than say, the number of people who passionately want the Zulus in the game.

Ergo, the only reason why Israel is not included is because there are a lot of people who passionately DON'T want Israel in the game, and will boycott the expansion if Firaxis acknowledges that, yes, the Hebrews/Israel are a civ worthy of respect. That's a passionate, and irrational dislike of the Hebrews/Israel (as evidenced by many of the posters on this thread), enough to create marketing concerns for Firaxis. You don't see anyone passionately arguing against including the Zulus or the Inca (barely a civilization at all -- they lasted maybe 100-150 years).

The reasons for really wanting a civ in the game are obvious -- national or ethnic pride, or historical interest. The reasons for really not wanting a civ in the game are baffling, and -- as shown by this thread -- probably based on hatred.

Can you criticize Israel without disliking Jews (ignoring for the moment that most people here believe the Hebrews better fit the criteria than modern Israel)? Of course -- provided the criticism is rational and fair, and applied equally as to every other state, in much the same way that one might criticize France for caving into unions, or India for not enforcing laws against oppressing the untouchables. But Israel, by and large, isn't criticized rationally... it's attacked for everything it does, far out of proportion to any other state, and without consideration of its concerns.

You provide the perfect example -- stating, specifically, about not "liking" Israel. One can criticize a policy or policies... but many people simply don't "like" Israel, in the sense that they don't believe it should exist. That is an irrational hatred fueled only by hatred of Jews.

And the world is filled with an irrational hatred of Israel that can be explained by nothing but hatred of Jews. Why is it that 30% of UN Resolutions condemn Israel, when there are dozens of corrupt, brutal, genocidal regimes out there (Zimbabwe, North Korea, Sudan, Lybia, Iran, etc.)? Why is it that every action Israel takes in self-defense, no matter how minor, is condemned?

 

[Koheleth]

I am very glad that this thread went so far without beeing censured/closed by mods. Mainly because it keept some high historic accuracy and friendly points of view;


I would answer that the world is filled today with paranoiac people who believe everyone hate them without asking one second if what they do/act fit into the high standard human values they pretend to have, due to their old and rich history. It is easier to put always themselves in the role of a victim than accept that maybe dramatic errors can be corrected.

The arrogance doesnt lead anywhere.


PS: In Creation and Customization forums there are "Israel flag", "Israel mod", "Israel leaderhead" and NOBODY left any aggressive coment, but all people are happy with it. Where are the haters?

And the world is also filled with people who hate Israel, and hate Jews (i.e. the Arab and Muslim world). And many of the people who don't actually "hate" Israel nevertheless advocate policies that are blatantly anti-Israel -- holding Israel to an imperfectly high standard, criticizing everything it does, ignoring all its concerns, and generally not recognizing its right to exist (i.e. Europe and the American Left). Sorry if Israel (and Jews) dissappoint you by existing....

Why do you believe that a Hebrew/Israel civ would be intrinsically "aggressive"? Probably because you fit into one of those categories...

 

[meatwad4289]

2 things... Arabs are in the game already.

and... "in the name of GOD (some entity which has never proved its existence btw)" many stories do offer proof, however, it is not solid proof. If you want solid proof im sure you'll know when you die. But, has anyone ever proven there was no God? I know there was a mathmatical equation that "proved" there was no god, however, it was discovered as incorrect weeks later. There wasa woman on the news a while ago, had heart disease and was in her deathbed waiting for a hearttransplant, her church held a fundraiser and prayed for her, she felt a change in her chest. The next day she took a test and was completely healed... How?

I believe the poster before you is insisting that Without the Jews there would be no modern civilization. And he is correct. As you know, back in the day, it was chaos and disorder, almost like it is today. Then Judiasm was spread and God's laws became the bases of mans laws. and these laws were spread from judiasm across the world. Let's face it, without jews pyramids would never of been built, the history of babylon would be lost, pegan sacrifices would still be mainstream.

Isreal is, in a sense, the catalyst for civilized people.
on a final note... heresa final thought and hopefully the last thing said about God.
...If there is a painting, there is a painter,
...If there is a building, there is a builder,
...If there is a creation, there is a creator.

 

[Perfect_Blue]

Israel is a controversial subject today only because the world is filled with Jew haters, and cowards who are afraid of Jew haters.

First off...wow.

Firaxis should be ashame that they caved into the baser insticts of bigots by never including Israel/Hebrews in any game (while including, at one time or another, many far less influential civs -- from the Zulus to the Hittites

Judaism.....JUDAISM....

 

[Salamandre]

And the world is filled with an irrational hatred of Israel that can be explained by nothing but hatred of Jews. Why is it that 30% of UN Resolutions condemn Israel, when there are dozens of corrupt, brutal, genocidal regimes out there (Zimbabwe, North Korea, Sudan, Lybia, Iran, etc.)? Why is it that every action Israel takes in self-defense, no matter how minor, is condemned?

Simply because all those you named recognize themselves not beeing a democratic power, they dont cry everywhere they are the choosen people(which may include responsabilities also) , they dont try to force anyone to live on their standard, they are isolated and on a decay path.So, now, why 30% UN resolutions condamn Israel? Dont tell me that UN is anti semitic because would be ridiculous.

And, the most important, UN believe in Israel, thats why it is taking decisions anytime it goes bad. What purpose would be any resolution against Korea, Iran, as those people doesnt give a **** about rest of the world. This isnt the case with Israel, isnt it?

 

[Perfect_Blue]

Oh, and all this godly folks from on high crap can go. Shouldn't this be in OT now, definately not about CIV anymore.

 

[Salamandre]

2 things... Arabs are in the game already.

and... "in the name of GOD (some entity which has never proved its existence btw)" many stories do offer proof, however, it is not solid proof. If you want solid proof im sure you'll know when you die. But, has anyone ever proven there was no God? I know there was a mathmatical equation that "proved" there was no god, however, it was discovered as incorrect weeks later. There wasa woman on the news a while ago, had heart disease and was in her deathbed waiting for a hearttransplant, her church held a fundraiser and prayed for her, she felt a change in her chest. The next day she took a test and was completely healed... How?


...If there is a painting, there is a painter,
...If there is a building, there is a builder,
...If there is a creation, there is a creator.

Rofl, this is the worst raison any pointed out here. I hope you guys get the peace you deserve to live in. I respect this kind of fanatism as long it is peacefull. But dont let it to blind you. An entity has to prove its existence, not its non existence. Thats how world works now, you disagree or not. But this is off topic, as GOD will be always a dangerous subject. As I said, IMHO, world would go much better if we accepted it doesnt exist/doesnt care about us, so WE have to take care and right decisions about our acts.

Because, right now, too many people are dying stupidly IN the name of god. Including Israelians.And Firaxis, sarcastic or not, recreated the true path and issue about having different religions. It can lead to war. Get it?

 

[Duuk]

First off...wow.



Judaism.....JUDAISM....

The Hebrews is the name of the people. Should anyone ask, I'd agree that Firaxis should have included the Hebrew Empire as a civ. I'd actually be against calling them "Israel", since that has only been used as a "civ name" for the last 200 ish years.

 

[Perfect_Blue]

Hebrews...the folks practicing Judaism, right?

And for the fella that thinks everyone hates Jews...
How bad would it be to have Israel in the game, then you'd complain when people crushed them and call everyone anti-semites

 

[Salamandre]

And many of the people who don't actually "hate" Israel nevertheless advocate policies that are blatantly anti-Israel -- holding Israel to an imperfectly high standard, criticizing everything it does, ignoring all its concerns, and generally not recognizing its right to exist (i.e. Europe and the American Left). Sorry if Israel (and Jews) dissappoint you by existing....

First, this is not true. I can tell you that in Europe the antisemitism is VERY well punished. So much punished, that it became quite impossible to have ever a minor critic against Israel. While in comic shows we can mock on anyone, americans, arabs (caricatures), we cant say ANYTHING about the jews. It is punished with jail. So the european politic about this is clear and strong.


And how could Israel dissapoint Europe and americans by existing, when Europe and Americans triggered the creation of Israel where it is actually?! I think the reality is that europeans and americans fear that the actions of Israel (selfdefense as you call it but doesnt give any positive results) could lead to a much more extented conflict, which would fire the whole word. Mainly because, between Hebrews and Muslims, we believe that only the hebrews have the key to solve peacefully this problem, as they are the only ones there to know the high value of the human life,isnt it? I hope my poor english was enough clear.

 

[Duuk]

Hebrews...the folks practicing Judaism, right?

And for the fella that thinks everyone hates Jews...
How bad would it be to have Israel in the game, then you'd complain when people crushed them and call everyone anti-semites

Yes, but using your logic, the people practicing Catholocism are all latins, right?

 

[HourlyDaily]

And we're talking about an expansion pack.... as evidenced by this thread, there are a lot of people who really want the Hebrews/Israel in the game (I personally think calling the civ "Hebrews" but including some modern city names works best) and who won't by the expansion pack without it -- such as myself. Far more than say, the number of people who passionately want the Zulus in the game.

Ergo, the only reason why Israel is not included is because there are a lot of people who passionately DON'T want Israel in the game, and will boycott the expansion if Firaxis acknowledges that, yes, the Hebrews/Israel are a civ worthy of respect. That's a passionate, and irrational dislike of the Hebrews/Israel (as evidenced by many of the posters on this thread), enough to create marketing concerns for Firaxis. You don't see anyone passionately arguing against including the Zulus or the Inca (barely a civilization at all -- they lasted maybe 100-150 years).

The reasons for really wanting a civ in the game are obvious -- national or ethnic pride, or historical interest. The reasons for really not wanting a civ in the game are baffling, and -- as shown by this thread -- probably based on hatred.

Can you criticize Israel without disliking Jews (ignoring for the moment that most people here believe the Hebrews better fit the criteria than modern Israel)? Of course -- provided the criticism is rational and fair, and applied equally as to every other state, in much the same way that one might criticize France for caving into unions, or India for not enforcing laws against oppressing the untouchables. But Israel, by and large, isn't criticized rationally... it's attacked for everything it does, far out of proportion to any other state, and without consideration of its concerns.

You provide the perfect example -- stating, specifically, about not "liking" Israel. One can criticize a policy or policies... but many people simply don't "like" Israel, in the sense that they don't believe it should exist. That is an irrational hatred fueled only by hatred of Jews.

And the world is filled with an irrational hatred of Israel that can be explained by nothing but hatred of Jews. Why is it that 30% of UN Resolutions condemn Israel, when there are dozens of corrupt, brutal, genocidal regimes out there (Zimbabwe, North Korea, Sudan, Lybia, Iran, etc.)? Why is it that every action Israel takes in self-defense, no matter how minor, is condemned?

The thing is that I would continue to play as the Zulu's if I got them randomly, but playing as America or as Israel I would not.

Sorry to CivFanatics but this post is perhaps the sole reason why I dislike Israel and Israeli politics. Let me explain;

You have to understand that the issues are not black and white. Israel is simply not always in the right - but it acts like it is. Anything said against it is pounced on as 'anti-semitic' which it clearly is not. The victimhood complex really gets to me. People are genuinely sorry for the history of the Jews but there comes a point where you just have to move society on instead of always referring to the past atrocities and using it as cover for present actions. Israel holds all the power in its relationship yet despite slight majority public opinion - refuses to acknowledge Palestine and move forward with the two-state solution (Hamas, and co-operation acknowledged as problems) There are too many conflicting views and power-struggles within its Government for any movement. That is not hatred, it is a simple evaluation of the facts that people have made and come to the conclusion that the state of Israel is terribly hypocritical.

Your post quite frankly disgusts me because it represents the sort of extreme "we shall not budge, even though everybody hates us" confrontationalism (is that a word?) that makes people uncomfortable. I support the existence of a Jewish state, but I also support the right of Palestinians to their own.

If you want to continue this sort of imflammatory discussion with me I suggest we do it via PM.

 

[Xineoph]

Whoa, whoa whoa!

We're not the ones who keep declaring war. We're not the ones who want to drive them out to the sea. We're not the ones who kept saying no to a 2-state solution since the beginning. We're not the ones who brought terrorists into the government.

While the Palestinians may not be fully in the wrong, you can fully blame the actions of the 'government' for what the PA areas are the way they are today. If they stopped supporting terrorism and took the iniative for peace, they would be like their Arab neighbours. Maybe not a good place to live like Israel, but at least they would have food, houses, healthcare and security.

Do not blame Israel over the Palestinians choice of government and it's resulting choices.