No Israel in Expansion Pack?

[kernok]

the past is the past
my solution for a better future:
- give people (jew, christians, muslims and co.) living in jerusalem some free time to spend a month or two in vaccation (they are so many beautiful beach over there)
- nuke jerusalem with a big bomb a put water into the resulting hole in order to create a pretty nice lake called "the lake of the old stupidity"
- build another big town called "new babel" or something like that
- avoid building specific religious buildings here, build "global people of the earth" temples instead
- the new city shouldn't belong to israel or palestine, the new city should belong to the earth

i know i'm dreaming... and maybe i'm the only one cuz men fear what is different from themselves and men like to fight their fears
arf

 

[Perfect_Blue]

My god you are a moran.

I wouldn't call people stupid names if you can't even spell them....moron

 

[SilentDemon]

I can read quite well... This is what you said:



And I responded to your patently false claim that "Israel as a focused area of people of the jewish faith has only come to pass in recent history." That's just wrong. Israel has been a "focused area of people of the Jewish faith" for about 3300 years. It sprung 3 independant Jewish commonwealths (from 1350-586 b.c.e., from about 130 b.c.e. to 30 b.c.e., and from 1948 to present).

And as for influential.... well, about 3/5ths of the world derive their religion and code of morality from ancient Israel. I'd call that pretty influential, for starters.

Why don't you learn how to read?

Israel has only come to pass as of recent history, as a nation (not a commonwealth, aggregate or vassal state, or similar entity.) Also, it is currently at its highest level of international recognition.

Outside of their religious implications (which is obvious and hasn't directly caused anything influencial in of itself.) What have they produced that has been influencial? (since you said "for starters" and cited the most obvious thing, which is still pretty weak, I figured you had more to offer.)

 

[SilentDemon]

they won FOUR wars against all their arab neighbors,

THE ARABS GOT OWNED, give Isreal the special ability to built f-15s from the start of the game, lol bomb level one capital cities! (since they have the best air force in the world)

Four wars which resulted in what great decisive outcome afterwards, what was produced by these victories that actually meant something?

 

[Koheleth]

Israel has only come to pass as of recent history, as a nation (not a commonwealth, aggregate or vassal state, or similar entity.) Also, it is currently at its highest level of international recognition.

Outside of their religious implications (which is obvious and hasn't directly caused anything influencial in of itself.) What have they produced that has been influencial? (since you said "for starters" and cited the most obvious thing, which is still pretty weak, I figured you had more to offer.)

Israel was absolutely an independant nation during all 3 periods, not a "vassal state" or anything similar. A commonwealth is just a term for a state, it does not mean subjugated or anything like that.

1350-586 -- The period of the biblical judges and kings. Perhaps not organized under the judges, but certainly an organized nation by the time of the monarchy. Still a 500 year period of independance, longer than many civs in the game.

130-30 -- the Hasmonean kings. Total independance. They kicked the Assyrian Greeks out and had an independant kingdom for 100 years. They even conquered -- obliterating Idumea (Edom) and Samaria. Marked the only example of forced conversation in Jewish history -- when Edom was conquered, and all the Edomites forcibly converted.

1948-present -- again, total independance.

In addition to the 3 periods, there were periods with significant Jewish autonomy as vassal states under more powerful empires, including the Persian period (515 to roughly 350) and about 100 years of the Roman period.

Why are you arguing me? Do you dispute the undisputed facts that Israel had two long periods of independance prior to the modern State of Israel? If so, why?

 

[SilentDemon]

Israel was absolutely an independant nation during all 3 periods, not a "vassal state" or anything similar. A commonwealth is just a term for a state, it does not mean subjugated or anything like that.

1350-586 -- The period of the biblical judges and kings. Perhaps not organized under the judges, but certainly an organized nation by the time of the monarchy. Still a 500 year period of independance, longer than many civs in the game.

130-30 -- the Hasmonean kings. Total independance. They kicked the Assyrian Greeks out and had an independant kingdom for 100 years. They even conquered -- obliterating Idumea (Edom) and Samaria. Marked the only example of forced conversation in Jewish history -- when Edom was conquered, and all the Edomites forcibly converted.

1948-present -- again, total independance.

In addition to the 3 periods, there were periods with significant Jewish autonomy as vassal states under more powerful empires, including the Persian period (515 to roughly 350) and about 100 years of the Roman period.

Why are you arguing me? Do you dispute the undisputed facts that Israel had two long periods of independance prior to the modern State of Israel? If so, why?

No, I'm arguing you because more importantly I don't see the relevance of Israel in a civ game, from the perspective of it being "a great civilization" or something similar. I acknowledge that they have had influences over periods and situations in history but I would scarcely compare them to say a British or Roman empire.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Well, after debate, at least we know that jews would be aggressive and obviously financial.. Solved. Now we have to find a leader, but it is the hardest part.

Didn't somebody (before the thread went political) state that the leader of Israel shouldn't be a prophet because this would offend muslims ? And Ben Gurion could also be a problem because muslims don't like him that much...so there should be a neutral guy...somebody who doesn't offend anyone...what about Huyana Capac ?

Judaism had a great influence on Civilization but we should all consider that "Civilization" is simply what we consider to be "Civilization" from our euramerican point of view.
Judaism certainly didn't have a lot of influence on Asoka, Qin or Montezuma, but Firaxis is a company founded in the United States of America.
The United States of America are an offspring of the european culture, and the european culture was greatly influenced by a jewish sect called christianity which became the state religion of the roman empire, which conquered all of europe...
The so called european culture then spread all over the world due to a military tech advantage and...umm...it looks like I'm loosing the point now...
Back to topic ( Israel as a civ):
For most of what we call history Israel was not an independant state but part of a larger empire, be it Babylonian, Persian, Roman or whatever, so I would not include them as a civ.
On the other hand it was stated that there was no real greek empire and Greece was always a part of the civ franchise (under a macedon king, but this is a different story...) and I am sure that that Israel has existed longer (with some interruptions) than the USA or Germany (although Firaxis included a prussian king from the 18th century as a German leader, but...you know...different story...)
My conclusion: I have no real conclusion. Honestly, I never thought about Israel in Civ because I never considered Israel as a major power.
Israel ? Why not Portugal ? Why not Poland ? Why not Italy ( NOT Rome) ?
This is probably the reason they did not include Israel.
Movies, Games, all the mainstream media is very eurocentric ( again: USA = more or less Europe)

Remember: "The Jews" are not a nation, "the jews" are a religion and these concepts (nation and religion) should not be confused.

 

[atreas]

On the other hand it was stated that there was no real greek empire and Greece was always a part of the civ franchise (under a macedon king, but this is a different story...)

In the first appearance of this I thought it was a joke, but repetition seems to indicate a bad knowledge of two things: history and geography.

First about history: in contrary to the other world, in Greece it was established the model of "city-states", and NOT empires. It was very difficult to do otherwise, because due to the landscape (too many hills and small islands, very few grasslands) it was both extremely difficult to establish a rule over the whole country, and extremely easy for the rebellions just to hide in the nearby mountains. Even much later and stronger forces, like the Romans or the Ottomans, couldn't establish a stronghold in the whole Greece - they left whole areas to be ruled almost indepentantly.

If we combine this with the fact that Greeks are, in general, quite stubborn and don't like to be ruled by anyone else except themselves (even the one from the next city isn't good enough), you will see that the idea of a Greek empire wouldn't occur to them. In fact, they valued much the fact that they were FREE MEN - in contrast to the Persians that were subjects to a King. To find a Greek empire you have to wait much longer, after the death of the idea of city states, in the late Byzantine years. But "civ franchise" is a misuse of both language and history.

I will leave the "Macedon King" issue aside - hoping you know a bit more history (and geography) about that than about the others. Just as a hint, I tell you that Macedonia is one of the very few areas in Greece that is "flat" (i.e. suitable for a real kingdom). But as we know from the game, flat areas are more difficult to defend against barbarians, and you need more time to establish your foothold on them...

 

[Koheleth]

Remember: "The Jews" are not a nation, "the jews" are a religion and these concepts (nation and religion) should not be confused.

Now this is totally off-topic, but, for the record, Jews are both a nation and a religion. Most Christians can't understand this, because Christianity is a purely universal religion, and few people in the US have much contacts with national religions (such as Judaism or the Druze).

Judaism is a national religion with universal elements. That's why, although you can convert to Judaism, it's significantly more difficult to do so than to become a Christian or a Muslim -- indeed, it's far more similar to the oderous process of becoming a US citizen.

Note: I am using nation in its technical, dictionary sense in this post; not as a sloppy synoym for country. You can have a nation and not a country -- as many nations do today, such as the Kurds, the Basque, the Ainu, many Native American tribes, etc.

 

[Koheleth]

I will leave the "Macedon King" issue aside - hoping you know a bit more history (and geography) about that than about the others. Just as a hint, I tell you that Macedonia is one of the very few areas in Greece that is "flat" (i.e. suitable for a real kingdom). But as we know from the game, flat areas are more difficult to defend against barbarians, and you need more time to establish your foothold on them...

Well, Civ has never gotten history right. In this version, Saladin is leader of the Arabs, although he was a Kurd. Huyana Cupac is leader of the Inca, despite the fact that there was no "Inca" empire. The word "Inca" referred exclusively to the King. The people and the empire were called Quechwa. Kublai Khan was more of a Chinese ruler than a Mongolian.... etc.

 

[SilentDemon]

Didn't somebody (before the thread went political) state that the leader of Israel shouldn't be a prophet because this would offend muslims ? And Ben Gurion could also be a problem because muslims don't like him that much...so there should be a neutral guy...somebody who doesn't offend anyone...what about Huyana Capac ?

Judaism had a great influence on Civilization but we should all consider that "Civilization" is simply what we consider to be "Civilization" from our euramerican point of view.
Judaism certainly didn't have a lot of influence on Asoka, Qin or Montezuma, but Firaxis is a company founded in the United States of America.
The United States of America are an offspring of the european culture, and the european culture was greatly influenced by a jewish sect called christianity which became the state religion of the roman empire, which conquered all of europe...
The so called european culture then spread all over the world due to a military tech advantage and...umm...it looks like I'm loosing the point now...
Back to topic ( Israel as a civ):
For most of what we call history Israel was not an independant state but part of a larger empire, be it Babylonian, Persian, Roman or whatever, so I would not include them as a civ.
On the other hand it was stated that there was no real greek empire and Greece was always a part of the civ franchise (under a macedon king, but this is a different story...) and I am sure that that Israel has existed longer (with some interruptions) than the USA or Germany (although Firaxis included a prussian king from the 18th century as a German leader, but...you know...different story...)
My conclusion: I have no real conclusion. Honestly, I never thought about Israel in Civ because I never considered Israel as a major power.
Israel ? Why not Portugal ? Why not Poland ? Why not Italy ( NOT Rome) ?
This is probably the reason they did not include Israel.
Movies, Games, all the mainstream media is very eurocentric ( again: USA = more or less Europe)

Remember: "The Jews" are not a nation, "the jews" are a religion and these concepts (nation and religion) should not be confused.

"The United States of America are an offspring of the european culture, and the european culture was greatly influenced by a jewish sect called christianity which became the state religion of the roman empire, which conquered all of europe..."

Although in context it is somewhat accurate to refer to christianity as a "jewish sect," out of context, christianity could not be considered to be a jewish sect. Just wanted to make sure this was clarified as it is slightly misleading.

 

[SilentDemon]

Well, Civ has never gotten history right. In this version, Saladin is leader of the Arabs, although he was a Kurd. Huyana Cupac is leader of the Inca, despite the fact that there was no "Inca" empire. The word "Inca" referred exclusively to the King. The people and the empire were called Quechwa. Kublai Khan was more of a Chinese ruler than a Mongolian.... etc.

Although that may be true, the Inca were far more civilization oriented than the loosely formed states of the jews in ancient times, and their accomplishments are on more of a world scale, outside of course for the jewish religion which as I said earlier has no real direct claim to a civilizational accomplishment.

 

[Xineoph]

I do not care if the Muslims do not want David & Solomon as they call them prohpets. It's out land and our people, not theirs. Let them go complain if they make a civilization with Mohammed or Ishmael.

This is the Hebrew civilization, not the Politically correct Hebrew civilization!

 

[Simsy]

personally I think it would be inappropriate to have Israel in the expansion pack, mostly politically and in other ways.

I'm fine with an Israel mod because then ppl can choose to have it or not.

why the arabs CAN be in and not being politics?

as the hebrews are quiet an ancient people i expect to see them in the game.

 

[Simsy]

Gee, well the empire of Israel is young, small and has won a war against Egypt with American weaponry. People are confusing Israel with with the history of Jews methinks.

in case you forgot , the hebrews are one of the ancient people in the world, and you talking here about the country and make a pure political reason - really not appropriate.

 

[cuchulain]

Although that may be true, the Inca were far more civilization oriented than the loosely formed states of the jews in ancient times, and their accomplishments are on more of a world scale, outside of course for the jewish religion which as I said earlier has no real direct claim to a civilizational accomplishment.

I find this quote to be mostly rhetoric. What does 'civilization oriented' mean? How are you defining what a civilization is? And how were the Inca at all more 'civilization oriented' than the Hebrew people?

I also think you misjudge the Inca Empire in terms of stability and accomplishment. In terms of political unity, in their hundred or so years of exsistence as an empire, the Inca were certinaly NOT unified: when the spanish arrived they were amid a huge civil war.

In terms of Hebrew accomplishments, they have one of the oldest written languages and one of the oldest written histories. In terms of modern accomplishments, modern day Israel has the Mossad and one of the best air forces in the world. Its also beleived, though not verified for obvious reasons, that Israel has nuclear submarines. If you don't think they were influential before, they certainly are now. If they weren't, they wouldn't be able to exist surrounded by hostile nations. Before anyone argues that it was the US and France that gave them the weapons, I'd like to point it out that that fact doesn't really matter anymore in terms of accomplishments... they have the weapons now, its not like the US could take them back if the wanted to. Carthage and Rome both relied on other peoples for the bulk of their military.

 

[Simsy]

just a quick reply to say i am very offended by some of the people reactions here.

what are we antisemi ? i expect better of the people here.

 

[Simsy]

now that i am thinking of it, i am afraid that perhaps this game has something against us,

even thou the hebrews are really very ancient, one of the first nations
and hold quite alot of advantages, we don't have one.

if there isn't enough room i wonder what the arabs are doing there.


i really hope i am wrong cause it will really kills one of my most important
hobbies.

 

[Xanikk999]

now that i am thinking of it, i am afraid that perhaps this game has something against us,

even thou the hebrews are really very ancient, one of the first nations
and hold quite alot of advantages, we don't have one.

if there isn't enough room i wonder what the arabs are doing there.


i really hope i am wrong cause it will really kills one of my most important
hobbies.

I just cannot let that go.

This game has nothing against any religion or race. It even says in the damn manuel that they made religions the same to avoid religious conflict.

And are you really such a baby that you have to say that the company has something against jews because they did not include the hebrews? Give me a break they cant include every country or ethnicity.
You have your reasons for why it should be included but firaxis has thier reasons on why they want to include a wide geographic range of people and keep things fair and interesting.

I hate to say this but the majority of players did not want a Hebrew nation. Just look at the polls. There were many other nations that deserved to be in and have a longer tradition in this game then the hebrew race. Firaxis is going to do whats in thier best interest is a business to keep the game fair on a wide range of criteria.

You can call people who disagree with you anti semmites but in reality very few people are as racist on these forums as you think. Just because we disagree with you doesnt mean we hate jews.

 

[Xineoph]

I hope not. Plus isn't Sid Meier Jewish? =)

anyways as we say in Hebrew.

L’shana ha’ba-ah b’Civilization!