No Israel in Expansion Pack?

[Gam]

No, my post is simply seeking fairness -- that Israel should get treated as every other nation. Does Israel screw up sometimes? Yes. Is Israel perfect? No. Duh.

But it's posts like yours that demonstrate the problem -- the evil of false moral equivilence. You expect Israel to move towards a "two-state solution." Well, about 75% of Israelis want a two-state solution, but there are few -- if any -- Palestinians who want the same. Every Palestinian leader (PLO or Hamas) has demanded either a "one state" solution, with Jews as second class citizens or shipped "back" to Europe (despite the fact that most Israeli Jews are middle-eastern), or a "two state" solution with a right of return to Israel -- or, in other words, 1 ethnically pure Muslim state, and 1 majority Muslim state with a persecuted Jewish minority. Sorry, but you can't expect people to just agree to be killed or persecuted.


I'll criticize Israel on a host of issues. But, unlike you, I won't pretend that Israelis and Palestinians are equally at fault, when the SOLE cause for the conflict has been the consistent refusal of Palestinians (and the entire Muslim world, save Turkey) to acknowledge Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State.

I don't like the term "anti-semitic," because it is stupid and misleading. But it is terribly biased to do nothing but criticize Israel without acknowledging that: a) all states are imperfect; b) that Israel faces very real threats to its existence, and to the safety of its people; c) that a substantial minority -- if not an outright majority -- of Palestinians want to do nothing but kill Jews; d) that there is no partner for peace; e) that -- like any state -- Israel has a right to defend its people. To hold Israel to a higher standards than any other state, to criticize Israel more than any other state, is irrationally biased , plain and simple.

If you're disgusted by us Jews not walking to the gas chambers anymore, than go ahead and be disgusted.

btw, I will note that this thread -- like many before it -- simply started out wondering why the Hebrews/Israel aren't included. Then it got a rash of posters attacking Israel for every little thing. I think this sort of proves my point (as if hundreds of UN resolutions, 5 wars, thousands of suicide bombers, irrational anti-Israel academic bans and divestment campaigns, etc.) that the main reason isn't in the game is because a large number of people actively and irrationally hate Israel.

I like the way you've put this.

In my discussions on Israel, there are generally two sides: those who support Israel, who generally know quite a bit about the conflict, and those who support the Palestinians because of what they've heard, or what they've seen on the news.

Supporting Israel isn't the 'cool' thing to do, I suppose.

The result of this is that in general, a pro-Palestinian poster will make several anti-Israel claims and then, when someone shows up to defend Israel with concrete evidence, that pro-Palestinian poster will either retreat and pretend the whole episode never occured, or counter with more conjecture.

It's really pretty sad, and makes for a lot of hate.

 

[meatwad4289]

alright guys so, the most reasons people cant include ancient isreal is... modern politics. one person said they don't want to harm their arab market...arab market???? I'm sorry, but I've seen pictures, Ive seen video... NOT MANY HAVE COMPUTERS OVER THERE. Hell, the only ones that probably do are the terrorist. Is Civ Osamas inspiration of world domination??? No offence to anyone of Arab decent but, lets face it, good portion of the middle east is lacking computers. And also.. What about the jewish market? they included france, that offends Americans. They included slavery that offends the native americans, african, jewish, arab,asia, and white markets(every race was a slave so it offends everyone) Communism offends Democracy, Democracy offends Communism. I doubt the game is worried about the market and politics. I believe they just doubt it will sell, without hitler....

If they do add Isreal they will add hitler.. Why? Because everyone wants to see what will happen, will they fight? will they ally?Will the Jews destroy them? What?

 

[Gam]

The thing is that I would continue to play as the Zulu's if I got them randomly, but playing as America or as Israel I would not.

Sorry to CivFanatics but this post is perhaps the sole reason why I dislike Israel and Israeli politics. Let me explain;

You have to understand that the issues are not black and white. Israel is simply not always in the right - but it acts like it is. Anything said against it is pounced on as 'anti-semitic' which it clearly is not. The victimhood complex really gets to me. People are genuinely sorry for the history of the Jews but there comes a point where you just have to move society on instead of always referring to the past atrocities and using it as cover for present actions. Israel holds all the power in its relationship yet despite slight majority public opinion - refuses to acknowledge Palestine and move forward with the two-state solution (Hamas, and co-operation acknowledged as problems) There are too many conflicting views and power-struggles within its Government for any movement. That is not hatred, it is a simple evaluation of the facts that people have made and come to the conclusion that the state of Israel is terribly hypocritical.

Your post quite frankly disgusts me because it represents the sort of extreme "we shall not budge, even though everybody hates us" confrontationalism (is that a word?) that makes people uncomfortable. I support the existence of a Jewish state, but I also support the right of Palestinians to their own.

If you want to continue this sort of imflammatory discussion with me I suggest we do it via PM.

You might notice that in 2000, Israel was possessed of an extremely left-wing government, and the Palestinians were on the verge of receiving their own state at Israeli hands. The resurgence of terrorism was what changed all that; the intransigence of Arafat did not help either.

 

[Perfect_Blue]

This has got to be one of the most propagandist posts I've ever seen.

I'm sorry, did you miss this???

that a substantial minority -- if not an outright majority -- of Palestinians want to do nothing but kill Jews...

Israeli bulldozers do more than bulldoze houses, they run right over people too (unarmed, to be sure). They even get away with killing Americans, which the American government usually isn't too keen on, unless it's perfect Israel, the perfect setup for a stale-mate, as Kissinger put it.

Eh, but whatever.

 

[DarkOpus]

So, Platon, Aristote and Homer are born in 1830

No, but Plato, Aristotle and Homer weren't born in Greece either.

As I've posted in many other threads there are two factors going on in what we know as Greece. The first is the City State, e.g. Athens, Sparta, the second is Pan-Hellenic ties. City States are completely autonomous and would regularly war with themselves (note the Peloponnesian War), however, they are united by a loose set of ties (not least the Homeric epics) which sees them take up common cause. To describe the area we know as Greek as the Greek Empire from the classical period is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. The Ancient Hellenes were not a united state, though we must accept that, in order to be in Civ4, shorthand solution to complex issues need to be found. If I want to play a game with the 'correct' City States in, then I'll play a scenario or a mod.

To the point of 'I' instead of 'J', what the last person to post on the subject said is completely correct. Which makes those mocking look a little silly indeed.

Finally, on the point of Israel. We seem to have reached some sort of concensus that the Hebrews would be a good inclusion. Though note that Judaism is included as a religion. If you want a Jewish state set it as your state religion. The bottom line is that Firaxis are not trying to protect sales in the Arab world, if they were why would they include Judaism? Games have to be playable (my comment above on the 'shorthand' solution to the Greek question) and part of this is including as many of the most recognisable powers as possible at the time of launch. I doubt any offence was intended. Firaxis have included extensive customisation and provide modding forums, as well as working on the latest expansions. They've done a marvelous job, enjoy the game, enjoy its potential.

That is all.

 

[HourlyDaily]

No, my post is simply seeking fairness -- that Israel should get treated as every other nation. Does Israel screw up sometimes? Yes. Is Israel perfect? No. Duh.

But it's posts like yours that demonstrate the problem -- the evil of false moral equivilence. You expect Israel to move towards a "two-state solution." Well, about 75% of Israelis want a two-state solution, but there are few -- if any -- Palestinians who want the same. Every Palestinian leader (PLO or Hamas) has demanded either a "one state" solution, with Jews as second class citizens or shipped "back" to Europe (despite the fact that most Israeli Jews are middle-eastern), or a "two state" solution with a right of return to Israel -- or, in other words, 1 ethnically pure Muslim state, and 1 majority Muslim state with a persecuted Jewish minority. Sorry, but you can't expect people to just agree to be killed or persecuted.


I'll criticize Israel on a host of issues. But, unlike you, I won't pretend that Israelis and Palestinians are equally at fault, when the SOLE cause for the conflict has been the consistent refusal of Palestinians (and the entire Muslim world, save Turkey) to acknowledge Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State.

I don't like the term "anti-semitic," because it is stupid and misleading. But it is terribly biased to do nothing but criticize Israel without acknowledging that: a) all states are imperfect; b) that Israel faces very real threats to its existence, and to the safety of its people; c) that a substantial minority -- if not an outright majority -- of Palestinians want to do nothing but kill Jews; d) that there is no partner for peace; e) that -- like any state -- Israel has a right to defend its people. To hold Israel to a higher standards than any other state, to criticize Israel more than any other state, is irrationally biased , plain and simple.

If you're disgusted by us Jews not walking to the gas chambers anymore, than go ahead and be disgusted.

btw, I will note that this thread -- like many before it -- simply started out wondering why the Hebrews/Israel aren't included. Then it got a rash of posters attacking Israel for every little thing. I think this sort of proves my point (as if hundreds of UN resolutions, 5 wars, thousands of suicide bombers, irrational anti-Israel academic bans and divestment campaigns, etc.) that the main reason isn't in the game is because a large number of people actively and irrationally hate Israel.

About the two state solution in Palestine - lies, the Palestinians actually support the two-state system in a greater majority than the Israelis.
I direct you to the writings of Jamal Nassar in the Age;
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opini...the-middle-east/2006/05/01/1146335667965.html

Note the comments about the occupation violating several UN resolutions (I still support it in principle) but that the Palestinians want Israel simply to continue to engage with them diplomatically.

Saying that the SOLE reason for the conflict is lack of recognition is quite possibly one of the dumbest things I've ever heard given the violence breeding violence.

Saying that any action is defensible because of the threat faced to the nation is also a large part of the problem. If both sides don't give ground - the cycle of violence will never ever end. Pre-emptive strikes is not defending the people, endless retaliatiory strikes is not defending the people - it places them in greater danger of reprisals particualrly given that civilian targets are softer than the Israeli military.

Twisting my words to say that "you're disgusted by us Jews not walking to the gas chambers anymore" when it is clearly not what I said. Obviously the thought horrifies me. Your comments merely prove my point that victimhood holds back the Jewish people - and often comments from Israels leaders calling other nations anti-semitic because they dare to criticise some of its actions is prime example. Takes things way out of proportion. In fact I think you have twisted my words when you suggest that Israel should be held to a greater account than other nations. I am often ashamed of the actions of my own government in regards to this 'war on terror' as if it was an act of defence, which it clearly is not, it is an act of aggression on a sovereign state .

What's more I think you'll find that on CivFanatics it is the people who are talking up the merits of Israel/Hebrew inclusion (or any other civ for that matter) and also proceed to denigrate the merits of other civs that start these debates. Once again, I fully support the inclusion of them in this game as I do many others. However the more active effort to put down one civ in favour of another generates a response to defend that Civ by those who are pleased to have it.

I do not expect you to agree with anything I've posted as you are obviously staunch in your own belief. Just understand that what I believe is just as valid, and is a few shared by the majority of people I've come into contact with. Israel needs to tone down its bullish attitude if peace is to be achieved. It cannot simply excuse all its actions as being in self-defence, it cannot always assume that it is right in these matters, and it needs to work on changing the perceptions of its own people for their own sake. Changing those perceptions so that people on both sides do not assume that the other side simply hates them and wants them wiped out - it is blatantly not true. Politicians need to take the lead there and not fan the fires of hatred and suspicion. That only feeds those few who do actively hate and wish destruction on Israel as well as those who wish it on the Palestinians.

As I said, if you wish to continue this discussion with me or anyone else, probably better for everybodies sanity that it is done via PM.

Cheers mate.

EDIT: Oh and Gam, Don't assume that people who take the view that both sides can be accomodated are anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian.
I am well read in the history of the region, the establishment of the Jewish state and the conflicts that have happened. I dare say that anyone who blames one side more than the other needs to be exposed to more unbiased coverage. Biased coverage fuelling established prejudices is what builds hate in any situation.

I'm not supporting either side unconditionally, I support an untampered, un-hijacked peace process. I'm doing it because its rational for the uninvolved to look at it this way, not becuase its cool. I've seen the anti-Israel nutjobs turning out in force at rallies in San-Francisco and they are doing it for their own reasons. They are only worthy of scorn as are any intolerant extremists no matter their views.

 

[zeeter]

Ugh... you are an ignorant fool. When Jews were dhimmis (2nd class citizens, deprived of basic rights and forced to pay humiliating taxes) for centuries in Arab and Muslim lands, it wasn't because of land disputes. When there was a blood libel in Syria in 1841, it wasn't because of land disputes. When Muhammed exiled or killed all the Jews of upper Arabia (Medina used to have a huge Jewish population), it wasn't because of land disputes.

The Arabs have always hated Jews (although some non-Arab Muslim rulers, particularly the Ottoman Turks, treated Jews well, and Jews generally were less persecuted than in Europe). Go to a Sephardi synagouge sometime, like my family does. You'll hear countless family stories of how well Muslims treated Jews.... long before Zionism.

I don't mean to turn this into an OT thread, but I have to respond when people state blatant falsehoods.

Similarly, yes, Israel responds militarily towards terrorists (although, even when the response isn't military -- such as by building a wall, they get condemned anyway). So does the US. So does the UK. So does France. But only Israel gets condemned for trying to protect its people. Is that Jew-hating (the term "antisemitism" is stupid and dated)? Certainly in effect, if not in explicit intention.

Ok, so the Muslims hated the jews way back in Mohammad's day. Then I guess this is something new, now? As for Europeans, they're mad because during the dark ages the Jews were the only ones bringing in goods. They turned around and sold them to the populace at inflated prices because they were the only ones with the goods.

But this is all so long ago. Nobody cares about this anymore except, as you say, the Muslims. You're talking about things that happened centuries ago. Sure, maybe stereotypes were still believed in up until a few decades ago, but not now.

As for comparing Israel to France, the UK, and the USA, how many official UN resolutions are these three countries in violation of right now? I can think of two that Israel is in violation of and has been in violation of for quite a while.

 

[zeeter]

btw, I will note that this thread -- like many before it -- simply started out wondering why the Hebrews/Israel aren't included. Then it got a rash of posters attacking Israel for every little thing. I think this sort of proves my point (as if hundreds of UN resolutions, 5 wars, thousands of suicide bombers, irrational anti-Israel academic bans and divestment campaigns, etc.) that the main reason isn't in the game is because a large number of people actively and irrationally hate Israel.

No, they're not in the game because they can't just put every civilization in history in the game. It's nothing against Jews. This is what bothers me about your posts. You think that since people don't say Israel this and Israel that that people hate Jews. PEOPLE ARE INDIFFERENT TO JEWS. Throw out the Muslim population and some hate groups and nobody hates Jews anymore. Stop living fifty years ago.

The West provided a homeland AND a means for Israelis to defend themselves. The West does not seriously pressure Israel to give in to the resolutions from after the wars thirty-odd years ago. I guess that means that the West hates Jews.

 

[SilentDemon]

Are you on crack? Ancient Israel was independant for about 800 years (roughly 1350 to 586 b.c.e.)!!! Then from about 500-150, Israel was a largely autonomous part of the Persian & Greek empires (think Puerto Rico). Then it was independant again for 100 years (2nd Commonwealth under the Maccabees/Hasmoneans), before Rome conquered it.

Learn your history.

I guess I missed the part where you convinced me they were "influencial."

Learn how to read, then tell me about history.

 

[SilentDemon]

What about the Greeks? Ever since the rise of the Roman empire, they have never been a nation either. Their culture was all over the empire, much like the Jewish culture continued, but the Greeks appeared in the game.

I know that people know Alexander the Great as much as they know Solomon the Wise.

Maybe we should get rid of the Greeks then? I mean they are a new nation as well, having only appeared in 1830.

The greeks had an empire, aside from some of the more prominent accomplishments in intellectual advancement.

 

[picardathon]

Well, lets see here. I understand that there was limited negotiation with fatah after Yasser Arafat's death, but now they're not negotiating with Hamas
Palestinians are not all terrorists
Yasser Arafat WAS a terrorist
Hamas IS a terrorist organization
Hamas will NOT work with Israel for any form of peace. It doesn't matter what in lords name the people think because the governments are the ones who negotiate.
Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert would be interested in negotiating with palestinians, but NOT Hamas, a well known terrorist group
You can't really blame the Israeli's right now for not wanting to negotiate wtih people who would love to drive Israel into the sea.
Also, whats the problem with the wall? The terrorists are coming. Its well known that they're coming from the palestinian areas. Hence one should build a wall so the terrorists can't come in whenever they want.
Seems logical to me

 

[Koheleth]

Ok, so the Muslims hated the jews way back in Mohammad's day. Then I guess this is something new, now? As for Europeans, they're mad because during the dark ages the Jews were the only ones bringing in goods. They turned around and sold them to the populace at inflated prices because they were the only ones with the goods.

But this is all so long ago. Nobody cares about this anymore except, as you say, the Muslims. You're talking about things that happened centuries ago. Sure, maybe stereotypes were still believed in up until a few decades ago, but not now.

As for comparing Israel to France, the UK, and the USA, how many official UN resolutions are these three countries in violation of right now? I can think of two that Israel is in violation of and has been in violation of for quite a while.

Can you read? I was responding to one person's opinion that Muslims hate Jews only because of Israel. I simply cited history to destroy that opinion. That's it.

 

[Koheleth]

About the two state solution in Palestine - lies, the Palestinians actually support the two-state system in a greater majority than the Israelis.
I direct you to the writings of Jamal Nassar in the Age;
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opini...the-middle-east/2006/05/01/1146335667965.html

Note the comments about the occupation violating several UN resolutions (I still support it in principle) but that the Palestinians want Israel simply to continue to engage with them diplomatically.

Saying that the SOLE reason for the conflict is lack of recognition is quite possibly one of the dumbest things I've ever heard given the violence breeding violence.

Saying that any action is defensible because of the threat faced to the nation is also a large part of the problem. If both sides don't give ground - the cycle of violence will never ever end. Pre-emptive strikes is not defending the people, endless retaliatiory strikes is not defending the people - it places them in greater danger of reprisals particualrly given that civilian targets are softer than the Israeli military.

Twisting my words to say that "you're disgusted by us Jews not walking to the gas chambers anymore" when it is clearly not what I said. Obviously the thought horrifies me. Your comments merely prove my point that victimhood holds back the Jewish people - and often comments from Israels leaders calling other nations anti-semitic because they dare to criticise some of its actions is prime example. Takes things way out of proportion. In fact I think you have twisted my words when you suggest that Israel should be held to a greater account than other nations. I am often ashamed of the actions of my own government in regards to this 'war on terror' as if it was an act of defence, which it clearly is not, it is an act of aggression on a sovereign state .

What's more I think you'll find that on CivFanatics it is the people who are talking up the merits of Israel/Hebrew inclusion (or any other civ for that matter) and also proceed to denigrate the merits of other civs that start these debates. Once again, I fully support the inclusion of them in this game as I do many others. However the more active effort to put down one civ in favour of another generates a response to defend that Civ by those who are pleased to have it.

I do not expect you to agree with anything I've posted as you are obviously staunch in your own belief. Just understand that what I believe is just as valid, and is a few shared by the majority of people I've come into contact with. Israel needs to tone down its bullish attitude if peace is to be achieved. It cannot simply excuse all its actions as being in self-defence, it cannot always assume that it is right in these matters, and it needs to work on changing the perceptions of its own people for their own sake. Changing those perceptions so that people on both sides do not assume that the other side simply hates them and wants them wiped out - it is blatantly not true. Politicians need to take the lead there and not fan the fires of hatred and suspicion. That only feeds those few who do actively hate and wish destruction on Israel as well as those who wish it on the Palestinians.

As I said, if you wish to continue this discussion with me or anyone else, probably better for everybodies sanity that it is done via PM.

Cheers mate.

EDIT: Oh and Gam, Don't assume that people who take the view that both sides can be accomodated are anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian.
I am well read in the history of the region, the establishment of the Jewish state and the conflicts that have happened. I dare say that anyone who blames one side more than the other needs to be exposed to more unbiased coverage. Biased coverage fuelling established prejudices is what builds hate in any situation.

I'm not supporting either side unconditionally, I support an untampered, un-hijacked peace process. I'm doing it because its rational for the uninvolved to look at it this way, not becuase its cool. I've seen the anti-Israel nutjobs turning out in force at rallies in San-Francisco and they are doing it for their own reasons. They are only worthy of scorn as are any intolerant extremists no matter their views.

My god you are a moran. I cite 60 years of history showing the Palestinians continued rejection of the two-state solution (unless, by "two state solution", they mean 1 ethnically pure Muslim state, and an Israel that, through the right of return, becomes a majority Muslim state with a persecuted Jewish minority). This is the position of Arafat and the PLO, which is why they insist on the so-called "Right of Return." Hamas, to date, doesn't even accept this "two state" solution. Neither the PLO, nor Hamas, nor any other major Palestinian organization/political party acknowledges Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. Nor do a majority of Palestinians -- which is why Arafat was cheered as a hero for turning down Barak's offer for 97% of the West Bank and Eastern Jerusalem, and why there's no such organization actually advocating peace.

You respond with... an op-ed that, citing no source, somehow derives that most Palestinians want a two state solution. Sorry, but here we play the "evidence card," and you ain't got none. Your belief ain't valid, it's idiotic and based on nothing except your own inner desire that its true...

And, yes, my remark about the gas chambers was 100% accurate, figuratively. Like Hitler, Hamas is 100% truthful in their desire to kill Jews. Hamas's charter states: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him" http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm


The PLO is less than 100% truthful, but still actively supports terrorism (Al Asqua Martyrs Brigade is a Fatah-controlled group). And the PLO's charter STILL calls for the elimination of Israel. http://www.iris.org.il/plochart.htm

You condemn Israel for fighting terrorists who want to do nothing but kill Jews. You condemn Israel for building a wall to stop the terrorists from killing Jews. You insist that Israel negotiate will people who -- quite openly -- express their desire to kill Jews. In short, you are asking Israelis to be killed and practice Ghandi-like non-resistence to being killed. Sorry, but Israel learned that lesson in Aushwitz.

If you want to take this to PMs, go ahead. But, as long as you respond publicly (and idiotically), I'll stand here to publicly correct the record with actual facts.

 

[Koheleth]

I guess I missed the part where you convinced me they were "influencial."

Learn how to read, then tell me about history.

I can read quite well... This is what you said:

Israel as a focused area of people of the jewish faith has only come to pass in recent history and in this time, they haven't been extremely influential as far as national / racial accomplishment.

And I responded to your patently false claim that "Israel as a focused area of people of the jewish faith has only come to pass in recent history." That's just wrong. Israel has been a "focused area of people of the Jewish faith" for about 3300 years. It sprung 3 independant Jewish commonwealths (from 1350-586 b.c.e., from about 130 b.c.e. to 30 b.c.e., and from 1948 to present).

And as for influential.... well, about 3/5ths of the world derive their religion and code of morality from ancient Israel. I'd call that pretty influential, for starters.

Why don't you learn how to read?

 

[Sgt._Simspon]

Gee, well the empire of Israel is young, small and has won a war against Egypt with American weaponry. People are confusing Israel with with the history of Jews methinks.

they won FOUR wars against all their arab neighbors,

THE ARABS GOT OWNED, give Isreal the special ability to built f-15s from the start of the game, lol bomb level one capital cities! (since they have the best air force in the world)

 

[Greek Stud]

Many of you seem to cast civilizations into Nationhoods.

Jews and Greeks have had global communities throughout time.

Many of you assume because a text book does not label and color a map specifically for one civilization that they are non-existant.

Greeks spoke Greek, even when they called themselves Roman. When the Byzantine Empire collapsed, Greek as a language and Orthodoxy did not disappear. It thrived underground.

No nation came to Peloponessos in 1830 and taught the Greeks to be Orthodox nor to speak and write Greek. The Greek Orthodox Church preserved Greek Culture underground for 400 years. Writing and speaking Greek was prohibited in the Ottoman Empire. And just because it was law, does not mean it did not happen. And just because Ottoman records proclamed census data to the world that Greek education and culture disappeared, it did not. We survived.

Jewish culture did not die either. Both when Ancient Israel was sacked by the Assyrians and when Judea was crushed by the Babylonians.

And people who honestly know the facts about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict know:
(1) The West did not give Jews their homeland, the Jews had to fight the West to allow the to return to their homeland.
(2) The Kingdom of Jordan is Palestine. They just changed their name from Palestine to Trans-Jordan to Jordan.
(3) If Israel did not respond to terrorist acts, this would look exactly like Cyprus. The Greeks do not fund terrorism, and many of you will mark EOKA as a terrorist group only because they fought the British Crown for independence and won. The American revolution is considered a revolution, but EOKA is a terrorist group? EOKA-B, I might agree did terrorist acts, but they were not the Cypriot government. At least Israel gave Egypt back the Sinai Peninsula and plans on giving Syria back the Golan Heights. The victims of Cyprus would have much rather had the Israelis broker justice in North Cyprus, whereas the Turks have no plans to pull out their settlers and 40,000 troops. At least the Israelis left Gaza Strip. A reasonable mind that looks for justice cannot condemn Israel for its policies.

 

[HourlyDaily]

My god you are a moran. I cite 60 years of history showing the Palestinians continued rejection of the two-state solution (unless, by "two state solution", they mean 1 ethnically pure Muslim state, and an Israel that, through the right of return, becomes a majority Muslim state with a persecuted Jewish minority). This is the position of Arafat and the PLO, which is why they insist on the so-called "Right of Return." Hamas, to date, doesn't even accept this "two state" solution. Neither the PLO, nor Hamas, nor any other major Palestinian organization/political party acknowledges Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. Nor do a majority of Palestinians -- which is why Arafat was cheered as a hero for turning down Barak's offer for 97% of the West Bank and Eastern Jerusalem, and why there's no such organization actually advocating peace.

You respond with... an op-ed that, citing no source, somehow derives that most Palestinians want a two state solution. Sorry, but here we play the "evidence card," and you ain't got none. Your belief ain't valid, it's idiotic and based on nothing except your own inner desire that its true...

And, yes, my remark about the gas chambers was 100% accurate, figuratively. Like Hitler, Hamas is 100% truthful in their desire to kill Jews. Hamas's charter states: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him" http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm


The PLO is less than 100% truthful, but still actively supports terrorism (Al Asqua Martyrs Brigade is a Fatah-controlled group). And the PLO's charter STILL calls for the elimination of Israel. http://www.iris.org.il/plochart.htm

You condemn Israel for fighting terrorists who want to do nothing but kill Jews. You condemn Israel for building a wall to stop the terrorists from killing Jews. You insist that Israel negotiate will people who -- quite openly -- express their desire to kill Jews. In short, you are asking Israelis to be killed and practice Ghandi-like non-resistence to being killed. Sorry, but Israel learned that lesson in Aushwitz.

If you want to take this to PMs, go ahead. But, as long as you respond publicly (and idiotically), I'll stand here to publicly correct the record with actual facts.

I really can't be bothered trawling around for evidence that shows the will of the Palestinians to simply have their own state so therefore consider this your victory. The violence will continue no matter what given the extremists on both sides whose only function is to hate. All I will say is that if Israel continues to use its superior weaponry, the more powerless Palestinians will continue to rally around the only things that make them feel powerful - militant groups bent on the destruction of Israel.

Chalk up another victory for Israeli bullishness if you wish. The sheer immaturity of the personal insults laced into your response is enough for me feel justified in my position.

But perhaps you can answer these questions; Continuing on the current path, what will it achieve? What is the aim? Put a big bloody wall up, solve nothing of the underlying conflict? How in the hell is that going to lead anywhere other than to more deaths? I think you'll find that I was in fact condemming poorly planned Israeli retalitatory attacks on Palestinian civilians, thereby feeding the hate and increasing the number of the terrorists. Yes the situation sucks, but both sides have to compromise to get anywhere - even with people you don't want to deal with. Oh but you and the Israeli's say they won't compromise, they only want us all dead. So what then, you don't stop until they are all dead? Stop and really think for a second if that can ever be achieved and if you want it to be achieved.

If you can't see the sheer lunacy in that, then I pity you.

 

[Shibsta]

Wasn't this about being a Israel civilisation ?

I don't think there should be one. There is already Judaism religion.

Theres much better civilisations to add before jews.

You may claim to be gods chosen people but you aren't Sid's

 

[Salamandre]

Well, after debate, at least we know that jews would be aggressive and obviously financial.. Solved. Now we have to find a leader, but it is the hardest part.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Now we have to find a leader, but it is the hardest part

Eternal Jew))))