No Modding Tools, Please!

[Takhisis]

I don't want to start a Civ3 vs Civ4 debate. My opinion is already clear on the matter.

Clear, rude, and unfounded.

You are misinterpreting what I am saying. I am saying that Civilization 4's modding capabilities are great. I want Civilization 5's to be even better.

You can improve on it with another civ4 expansion instead of forcing everyone to relearn the modding procedures.

That would be terrible if they did that instead of what they have now for Civ4. We'd get 1 thousand look alike archers, 1 million units that try to look like reproductive organs, and no new depth to gameplay.

You don't understand. Ever played Rome: Total War? You can upgrade every battalion's attack, missile attack, or defense stats individually. They have the same gfx and are exactly the same unit, with a few bonuses. Would having 5/6 lancers attack 6/6 lancers be the same as 6/6 attacking 5/&?

 

[Afforess]

You must never have played Civ III or used its editor. Because it was external, it was faster, much easier to use, you could save and come back without any problems and so on. Oh, and going into the notepad editor is purely a pain. I am not a programmer and don't want to have to scroll through 5 million lines to change a couple things. It can easily be done in an editor.

I have played Civ3, and I do remember the editor. The editor was the only good modding tool the game had for a long time. You would never see a FFH2 or Revolutions mod with Civ3 -type editors.

The utilities in the forums were being made by people who were sacrificing there time, for free, to work on these editors, which was taking time away from them being able to work on their own projects. I salute them for their efforts, even if nothing really good ever came from it. The XML files, like the worlbuilder files, were very cumbersome and a pain to sort through... not to mention having to go through multiple files to make sure that you covered all the bases for one little edit. Plus, as Dale said, who says they are using XML this time. Read the news, Civ V is built from a whole new engine.

New Engine, yes. But I doubt Firaxis is going to invent a new programming language just for Civ5. They will just use standards. C++ is still a standard, python, if anything is more popular today, and XML is ubiquitous.

Easy for who... those who already know how to program? Many of us don't have the time to learn all of these things just so that we can play a game.

I learned programming by modding Civ4, not the other way around.

Obviously, if you do want the SDK, then you want the ability to mod... you are just being selfish and want the ability to do so to lay with those that have Computer Science Degrees. For them to release the basic tools mentioned above, it does not mean that they have to gimp the advanced tools for advanced modders. I want those too so that the experts can churn out some creative and advanced mod than I could ever dream of doing without a mod team.

While I appreciate ad hominem attacks as much as the next guy, if you look at my profile, you will see I am only a student, with no degrees to my name. Lowering the modding entry level won't increase the number of quality mods, it will just increase the noise to signal ratio; making crappy, ill-balanced mods more prevalent.

Considering that what they used to create the game probably cost them a pretty penny (have you ever looked at the prices of the tools that game designers use?), I doubt that they would give us "exactly what they used to create the game"! Some of us just want to make simple and unoriginal mods for ourselves. Some of us want to make scenarios without having to take 5 months off of work and spend 16 hours a day doing so.

They did with Civ4, barring the GameByro engine, which we can't see due to licencing. The XML files were all made with XMLSpy and the SDK with VS 2003.

Please, stop being so selfish... let us have what we want and stop complaining about our desire for advanced tools that simplify some of the modding. As I have stated over and over, I want these tools so that the rest of us can modify what we want while those that are more advanced (like Rhyse and Dale to name a few of the generous souls that like to help us out) can spend more time working on their own projects.

I tell you again, look at spore. "Modding" spore is simple, but there are probably only 1 or two interesting mods for 100000 creatures. Do you want this? I guess wanting quality is selfish these days.

 

[Takhisis]

Afforess, please, use multiquote.

 

[Afforess]

Clear, rude, and unfounded.

It's not my fault that's how you interpret it. I didn't make any claims, I just want to avoid starting a topic that will cause more flaming than the current one.

You don't understand. Ever played Rome: Total War? You can upgrade every battalion's attack, missile attack, or defense stats individually. They have the same gfx and are exactly the same unit, with a few bonuses. Would having 5/6 lancers attack 6/6 lancers be the same as 6/6 attacking 5/&?

That isn't modding, so much as it is just tweaking stats.

 

[Afforess]

Afforess, please, use multiquote.

Your posting faster than I can respond, I can't refresh mid-reply.

 

[Dale]

Without an SDK, the mods we will see will be on par with current Civ3 mods. Civ3 mods pale in comparison to Civ4 mods. I would go as far to say that there aren't really any Civ3 mods so much as there are Civ3 game tweaks.

You keep referring only to Civ3. Civ3 was very locked down. But there are MANY ways indeed to open up for complex mods without supplying a Civ4 styled SDK. As I've already mentioned, CTP2. There were a couple big mods at least as complex and game-changing as the big Civ4 mods. There were also the minor mods, and even modcomps. And then there are also games based of Valve's engine. Mod's so complex and intricate (without an SDK or access to source code, only Valve's scripting language) that they became commercial successes. An SDK is NOT a pre-requisite for large complex mods. Only one way to allow them to happen.

C4C was just an extensive mod of Civ4. They couldn't offer anything more than they already had with Civ4. Civ5 is a completely new game engine.

Taken directly from Firaxis site for Civ4Col:

Mods and Community Tools: Players will have limitless options for modifying the game to suit their needs. Firaxis will ship the game with modding tools including a map editor using XML and Python.

http://www.firaxis.com/games/game_detail.php?gameid=21

We did not see such an editor. All we got was an untouched World Builder with all the identical flaws of Civ4. Just because the World is promised does not mean the World shall be delivered.

However, I do have a fear that by "unprecedented modding tools" they mean something like the creature creators in Spore. I will be very very unhappy if that's all it is.

We will have to wait and see.

 

[Afforess]

You keep referring only to Civ3. Civ3 was very locked down. But there are MANY ways indeed to open up for complex mods without supplying a Civ4 styled SDK. As I've already mentioned, CTP2. There were a couple big mods at least as complex and game-changing as the big Civ4 mods. There were also the minor mods, and even modcomps. And then there are also games based of Valve's engine. Mod's so complex and intricate (without an SDK or access to source code, only Valve's scripting language) that they became commercial successes. An SDK is NOT a pre-requisite for large complex mods. Only one way to allow them to happen.

Valve releases their SDK though.

 

[Dale]

Now, but they didn't used to.

 

[PieceOfMind]

To me, modding tools means limitations. SDK means near limitless possibilities.

I don't really care if "modding tools" are provided with Civ 5 or not, but I will care a lot if we don't have the opportunity to tinker directly with the nitty gritty source code. Anything less than that (which I doubt) and I would question the use of "unprecedented" in the description of the game's modding potential.

EDIT
Damn, there were 7 more posts as I wrote this.

 

[SJSerio]

I have played Civ3, and I do remember the editor. The editor was the only good modding tool the game had for a long time. You would never see a FFH2 or Revolutions mod with Civ3 -type editors.

I've seen some pretty impressive mods for Civ3, especially considering that there was no SDK or source code release.

New Engine, yes. But I doubt Firaxis is going to invent a new programming language just for Civ5. They will just use standards. C++ is still a standard, python, if anything is more popular today, and XML is ubiquitous.

And your point? We don't know what they are going to use at this point. And no matter what they do use, mod tools are for user friendliness. Those that want can still dig into the code. Why is it that everyone who argues against mod tools always seems to think that user friendly tools will somehow put limits on what advanced modders can do?

I learned programming by modding Civ4, not the other way around.

Good for you. I just wish I had the time in my life to do so... but then again, my emphasis is on the creation aspect, not the coding.

While I appreciate ad hominem attacks as much as the next guy, if you look at my profile, you will see I am only a student, with no degrees to my name. Lowering the modding entry level won't increase the number of quality mods, it will just increase the noise to signal ratio; making crappy, ill-balanced mods more prevalent.

Are you a student in high school or in college (I only ask because your profile says you are 18, which could go either way. Whatever the case, you definitely have more time then I do... I work a full time job which I commute 5+ hours a day for, just so that I can afford the luxories of being able to play games (as well as tend to my other hobbies). Not to mention trying to have a social life, trying to go back to school to improve my life and all of the other responsibilities and worries that come with being an adult, I just don't have time to learn a couple programming languages just so that I can play a game the way I want to play it. Modding allows me to adjust a game to my own preferences beyond what the game options allow. And then, maybe, with practice, I could release something that would be accepted by at least some members of the community. The easier it is for me to do, the more likely I (and others like me) could do it. Thus, whether you have a degree in programming, or are just a young hobbyist still have leg up on me, but wish to limit my potential for your own selfishness. Not to mention that when you say that you want to limit the tools to the more advanced in order to prevent crap mods, you are attacking those that do not have the skills that you do... a very arrogant and self righteous attitude.

They did with Civ4, barring the GameByro engine, which we can't see due to licencing. The XML files were all made with XMLSpy and the SDK with VS 2003.

Well, correct me if I am wrong, and I am pretty certain that I am not, but a game's engine is the core of game. It is what makes it run... a very important and big part of the final product. In any case, I am sure that if you looked up the cost of buying a license to the engine, the price would be pretty high. The rest of that stuff (the XML and such) is just the icing on the cake.

I tell you again, look at spore. "Modding" spore is simple, but there are probably only 1 or two interesting mods for 100000 creatures. Do you want this? I guess wanting quality is selfish these days.

One thing to remember about Spore, the game practically throws everybody elses creations at you, so yeah, you are going to see a ton of the worst. As far as quality goes, I would like you to try something for me...

Go to a book store or a library. Look at all of the books on the shelf. Probably about 90 to 95% of them will not be interesting to you and you may consider many of them poor quality if you picked some up and looked through them. Of course, the person next to you may love every page of the book. That is called opinion.

Now, consider the best seller rack. All of the authors on that rack submitted many titles to a publisher. For many of those authors, a majority of the manuscripts that they submit end up in the publisher's round file (if they don't wind up in the author's round file first). Manuscripts that don't go to the round file wind up getting altered through the editing process... sometimes dramatically. Only the very few VERY lucky authors (or celebrities) find success right away. The point of all of this is that the ton of crap improves the creator over time, leading to works of art. This can be applied to any field. So, you ask me if wanting quality is selfish these days? The answer is yes, if it puts a limit on potential.

 

[Afforess]

And your point? We don't know what they are going to use at this point. And no matter what they do use, mod tools are for user friendliness. Those that want can still dig into the code. Why is it that everyone who argues against mod tools always seems to think that user friendly tools will somehow put limits on what advanced modders can do?

I'm arguing against them for 2 reasons:

1.) Advanced Editors usually mean that there are limitations. This is not always the case, but there is a strong correlation nonetheless.

2.) Creating an Advanced Editor takes time. Time that the dev's simply don't have. I would prefer that they do something cool with that time, like add Revolutions, or Dark Ages, then an Advanced Editor.

Are you a student in high school or in college (I only ask because your profile says you are 18, which could go either way. Whatever the case, you definitely have more time then I do... I work a full time job which I commute 5+ hours a day for, just so that I can afford the luxories of being able to play games (as well as tend to my other hobbies). Not to mention trying to have a social life, trying to go back to school to improve my life and all of the other responsibilities and worries that come with being an adult, I just don't have time to learn a couple programming languages just so that I can play a game the way I want to play it. Modding allows me to adjust a game to my own preferences beyond what the game options allow. And then, maybe, with practice, I could release something that would be accepted by at least some members of the community. The easier it is for me to do, the more likely I (and others like me) could do it. Thus, whether you have a degree in programming, or are just a young hobbyist still have leg up on me, but wish to limit my potential for your own selfishness. Not to mention that when you say that you want to limit the tools to the more advanced in order to prevent crap mods, you are attacking those that do not have the skills that you do... a very arrogant and self righteous attitude.

Quite a paragraph there. Basically, it sums up to: I don't mod because I have other priorities in life. That's fine. I understand, real life > modding. But it's rather arrogant to demand that the dev's include last minute features so that you can continue your action-packed life and mod Civilization too.

Go to a book store or a library. Look at all of the books on the shelf. Probably about 90 to 95% of them will not be interesting to you and you may consider many of them poor quality if you picked some up and looked through them. Of course, the person next to you may love every page of the book. That is called opinion.

Now, consider the best seller rack. All of the authors on that rack submitted many titles to a publisher. For many of those authors, a majority of the manuscripts that they submit end up in the publisher's round file (if they don't wind up in the author's round file first). Manuscripts that don't go to the round file wind up getting altered through the editing process... sometimes dramatically. Only the very few VERY lucky authors (or celebrities) find success right away. The point of all of this is that the ton of crap improves the creator over time, leading to works of art. This can be applied to any field. So, you ask me if wanting quality is selfish these days? The answer is yes, if it puts a limit on potential.

I'm a very selfish person then.

 

[EdCase]

I'm arguing against them for 2 reasons:

1.) Advanced Editors usually mean that there are limitations. This is not always the case, but there is a strong correlation nonetheless.

2.) Creating an Advanced Editor takes time. Time that the dev's simply don't have. I would prefer that they do something cool with that time, like add Revolutions, or Dark Ages, then an Advanced Editor.

I think perhaps the developers are a better judge of the time they have than you. With regards to adding something "cool", isn't that what modding is for ?
After all your definition of "cool" may differ substantially from mine.

Quite a paragraph there. Basically, it sums up to: I don't mod because I have other priorities in life. That's fine. I understand, real life > modding. But it's rather arrogant to demand that the dev's include last minute features so that you can continue your action-packed life and mod Civilization too.

The only arrogance demonstrated in this thread so far has been yours. You are demanding they don't do something that they have stated they ARE doing. People in glass houses etc.....

I'm a very selfish person then.

No just young and enthusiastic we all are/were once. Then generally we mellow.

 

[Dale]

I'm arguing against them for 2 reasons:

1.) Advanced Editors usually mean that there are limitations. This is not always the case, but there is a strong correlation nonetheless.

Maybe limitations when using the editors, but if there is still access to the raw files then it would be win-win if they release a user-friendly editor.

2.) Creating an Advanced Editor takes time. Time that the dev's simply don't have. I would prefer that they do something cool with that time, like add Revolutions, or Dark Ages, then an Advanced Editor.

Having created some editors myself, it doesn't take as much time as you would think. Besides, we don't know the current state of development so comments such as "Time that the dev's simply don't have" are pointless.

Quite a paragraph there. Basically, it sums up to: I don't mod because I have other priorities in life. That's fine. I understand, real life > modding. But it's rather arrogant to demand that the dev's include last minute features so that you can continue your action-packed life and mod Civilization too.

"Last minute features"? Considering the PR talks about modding tools obviously they'd been considered, designed, paid for and approved long before now. The tools are probably already in a state of completion by now since it takes a lot less time and resources to develop tools than the core.

 

[SJSerio]

I'm arguing against them for 2 reasons:

1.) Advanced Editors usually mean that there are limitations. This is not always the case, but there is a strong correlation nonetheless.

2.) Creating an Advanced Editor takes time. Time that the dev's simply don't have. I would prefer that they do something cool with that time, like add Revolutions, or Dark Ages, then an Advanced Editor.

1.) Again, I would have to argue with this. Just because an advanced editor is created, it does not mean that advanced editing will be limited. The only case where that would be true is if the game is built based on the editor, instead of the editor built based on the game.

2.) If the developers have been working on the editor parellel with the game, your point here is untrue, too. Even if work is begun on it later in the cycle, it still isn't necessarily true. Again, the developers are being paid to do it as opposed to fan modders. They have the resources of the game itself and access to the engine.

Quite a paragraph there. Basically, it sums up to: I don't mod because I have other priorities in life. That's fine. I understand, real life > modding. But it's rather arrogant to demand that the dev's include last minute features so that you can continue your action-packed life and mod Civilization too.

Hey, I just want to be able to do the basics. The ability to easily to change stats without scanning through lines of code that I can half read is priceless for that desire. (Call it tweaking if you want, but it is modding... it is modifying the original work, just like if someone were to add small line to the Mona Lisa because they felt that it needed it, they would be modifying the painting (of course, I am referring to a copy piece)... you don't tweak DaVinci). Anyway, beyond that, I might like to add some Civs (or other elements) of my own and would like to do so without too much hassle or frustration. Then, I may want to do a scenario which I could then share to those that want it. How is that arrogant?

I'm a very selfish person then.

I suppose you are then!

 

[Afforess]

I think perhaps the developers are a better judge of the time they have than you.

Generally, all game development is rushed for time. I have never heard a single game where the dev's after-word said "We had plenty of time, so we fiddled around..."

The only arrogance demonstrated in this thread so far has been yours. You are demanding they don't do something that they have stated they ARE doing. People in glass houses etc.....

Really? Where did they say they would give us editors? I don't want them to spend time making editors they don't already have, just because of community pressure, not that editors are inherently evil.

 

[Afforess]

1.) Again, I would have to argue with this. Just because an advanced editor is created, it does not mean that advanced editing will be limited. The only case where that would be true is if the game is built based on the editor, instead of the editor built based on the game.

I just said that there was a strong correlation. No need to create a strawman or warp my words.

2.) If the developers have been working on the editor parellel with the game, your point here is untrue, too. Even if work is begun on it later in the cycle, it still isn't necessarily true. Again, the developers are being paid to do it as opposed to fan modders. They have the resources of the game itself and access to the engine.

Your statement hinges on the if. The If, which I already stated in the OP (read the last line), is fine with me.

Hey, I just want to be able to do the basics. The ability to easily to change stats without scanning through lines of code that I can half read is priceless for that desire. (Call it tweaking if you want, but it is modding... it is modifying the original work, just like if someone were to add small line to the Mona Lisa because they felt that it needed it, they would be modifying the painting (of course, I am referring to a copy piece)... you don't tweak DaVinci). Anyway, beyond that, I might like to add some Civs (or other elements) of my own and would like to do so without too much hassle or frustration. Then, I may want to do a scenario which I could then share to those that want it. How is that arrogant?

It seriously takes 15 minutes to learn XML. Most of it is written in plain English. Demanding an editor is pretty arrogant when you don't want to spend the short amount of time it takes to figure it out. The entirety of Civ4 XML is even documented! (With video tutorials to boot!)

 

[Dale]

Generally, all game development is rushed for time. I have never heard a single game where the dev's after-word said "We had plenty of time, so we fiddled around..."

Of the seven betas of AAA titles I've been on, 3 of those were completed on/before time.

Really? Where did they say they would give us editors? I don't want them to spend time making editors they don't already have, just because of community pressure, not that editors are inherently evil.

The Civ5 official website states "With unprecedented modding tools". I'd provide a link, but I'm sure you know the address by now.

 

[Afforess]

Of the seven betas of AAA titles I've been on, 3 of those were completed on/before time.

Hopefully you aren't counting CitiesXL as on-time. They cut so many features to make the deadline.

The Civ5 official website states "With unprecedented modding tools". I'd provide a link, but I'm sure you know the address by now.

Weren't you the one pushing the idea that it's all marketing speak? You can't say that, then try to use it as evidence too.

 

[SJSerio]

It seriously takes 15 minutes to learn XML. Most of it is written in plain English. Demanding an editor is pretty arrogant when you don't want to spend the short amount of time it takes to figure it out. The entirety of Civ4 XML is even documented! (With video tutorials to boot!)

Wow, it takes only 15 minutes to learn it? That is pretty amazing...

OK, sarcasm aside, XML is not so plain. Yes, it is readable, and I can understand and find a good amount of it for basic editing. Of course, there are many "functions" that I am clueless as to what they do (throughout all of the files) and when it comes to Schema, I am lost. Regardless of it's "ease" to learn, it is a pain to work through. All of the lines and cross referencing to make sure that file is edited so this will work and such. Give me a simple, user friendly editor any day of the week.

Now, I don't know programming (though I understand the basics of it from when I tried to teach myself way back when), but I am decent with MS Access and I am certain that I could make a pretty decent front end editor relatively quickly (especially if I had even a little more time to spare). It wouldn't be functioning because of the programming aspect, but it would be clear and user friendly and somebody with the programming knowledge could probably go behind and add the functionality (by programming it to edit the XML files. I would not envy the person doing that, so, along with my time issue, I never attempted up to this point. On my end (doing the front end portion), the hardest part would be translating all of the functions and what they are doing.

Anyway, my point is that yes, I can read the XML, but it is the hassle of editing it that is the problem. It is very time consuming and, quite frankly, tiring... especially for someone that is not a programmer. I am more of a designer! That is my passion and getting bogged down in code (be it C++, Python, or even XML) just takes me away from my passion and makes it a chore.

 

[SJSerio]

Dale, you beta'd CitiesXL...