No more AND, what now?

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

You would be in for a surprise against my friend who does wonders if you let him play for mansa musa(it was a leader banned since the one game I let him play with that leader; he soon had 2x lead and it was a quick game over for me). Even in our current game with rebalanced traits, he's a leader in techs.

Actually, I suppose that he would have some advantage playing for Mansa Musa with your version of AND; if you've rebalanced traits, I believe you when you say MM was overpowered before rebalancing. But in my version, I never had problems with MM although I've never had a human MM facing me. I'm giving a quick try to your version of AND just to see the difference with my own version (I'm using ver 2 beta with some rebalancing made by myself, I'll upload it for you tomorrow if you want to try).

 

[gdambrauskas]

i can check it out. My main gripe with versions>1.74 && <2 was that each time trying them is a significant time investment (i also involve my friend and my wife) and often problems start to manifest themselves late in the game. I haven't tried v2, since i had oos with all versions after massive number of hours (and then my wife yells at me for wasting her time...). Since then i stuck with 1.74 which allows to go well into modern era (beyond that it might buggy, but never got there).
I got your email, i'll try to see if we can get something going this weekend if you have time? I just moved to a new apartment, but i am sure to be tired and will need to have a break of civ...

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

i can check it out. My main gripe with versions>1.74 && <2 was that each time trying them is a significant time investment (i also involve my friend and my wife) and often problems start to manifest themselves late in the game.

I know, I also had this problem since I've started playing AND. I also wondered why nobody was complaining about it...

I haven't tried v2, since i had oos with all versions after massive number of hours (and then my wife yells at me for wasting her time...).

This is what happens to me too, with the difference that I'm the one yelling (my wife enjoys playing even when we can't finish a game)

Since then i stuck with 1.74 which allows to go well into modern era (beyond that it might buggy, but never got there).

Well I can tell you that we've been able to finish two games of two with version 1.75C and 1 game (of 1) with version 2 (modified by me), playing until the last turn to future era.
The last game I was very close to win but AI overtook me at the last turn (using Mastery Victory). Now we're playing a new game with ver 2 with some more rebalancing (but some more needs to be done, I think) and we're in renaissance era right now with very few oos that were solved by simply both of us quitting the game, restarting and reloading.

I got your email, i'll try to see if we can get something going this weekend if you have time? I just moved to a new apartment, but i am sure to be tired and will need to have a break of civ...

I think I'm getting back home too late on sunday because I'm away from home in another city but in case plans change (could depend on weather ), I'll let you know.

 

[gdambrauskas]

Definitely recommend caveman to cosmos. Everything they've added is amazing

how is 'bark gatherer', 'thin mushroom gatherer', 'thick mushroom gatherer' amazing? So many many buildings are identical giving generic 1 culture, 1 food, 1 commerce/science that diversifying is just not there. I just click, click on everything without giving things any thought. The mod has cool stuff, but generic stuff is way inflated in there.

 

[JosEPh_II]

how is 'bark gatherer', 'thin mushroom gatherer', 'thick mushroom gatherer' amazing? So many many buildings are identical giving generic 1 culture, 1 food, 1 commerce/science that diversifying is just not there. I just click, click on everything without giving things any thought. The mod has cool stuff, but generic stuff is way inflated in there.

I have had the Bark gatherer Hut but never seen a bark gatherer/worker. If the Mushroom resource is not around to use you won't have thin thick or any kind of mushroom gatherer/worker either, as they do not exist in the Mod. The "Hut" may be there If you get the resource. All that said, yes, there is a plethora of building choices. And it's a Mod that lives by the creed "More is Better" while others enjoy mods where "Less is More". C2C is Meant to give you a Looonnnggg game if you are not a spazzed out warmonger type player ( I can conquer the world in 50 turns!!! type).

So it's all pretty much a matter of taste and prespective. RoM and AND had the same complaints when they were being developed too.

But you are now playing Mods that will not see further development by the Original Authors (Zappara and Afforess). If any further tweaks are done they will be done by adventurous players/modders.

JosEPh

 

[gdambrauskas]

If you look at professionally designed games, they are carefully balanced to create choice. If you read/listen to any of civ designer google talks, design docs etc, they will point at 1 key point of the game design: force player to make a choice through creation of scarcity; balance is another key point. c2c is very very sad in those department. Original rom/and still have it to a certain degree, but c2c is somewhat of " ok, we got mushrooms. Lets create a building for it. Hmm, what should it do? Hmm, lets do same as for the other 100 buildings before it ie produces generic 1 commerce, culture etc". There's absolutely nothing in such building that adds to the deeper gameplay. I do love diversity and a lot of stuff to play (i played maybe 1-2 vanilla civ games and found them having too little stuff compared to master of orion 2 or call to power; discovering mods enabled me to enjoy civ with all the whistles i wanted). So, yes, c2c has 2000 buildings etc, but there's no depth in choices and it's very unbalanced because of just too many stuff in the game. Afforess also stuck with his AND mod, since he didn't agree with c2c direction.
As far as new development, i have no problems with incorporating fixes back into the version of AND i am playing to get speed/stability improvements. c2c is also a game that gets so many changes in a very short time and the result is unstability, bug galore. I'd rather have older, but more stable and more balanced game.
ps: i come from multiplayer gaming perspective, where any design/balance can become an exploit ruining the game.

 

[gdambrauskas]

i am "a spazzed out warmonger type player" but my mp games last ~30-40 hours, so i think that's sufficiently long game. I've been playing civ AND mp games for 3 years, so stability and balance is #1 priority for me. My pleasure in civ games come from outsmarting other people, not fighting seriously dumb civ AI .I've played 1 game where i picked arabia and was in the desert; at some point i had 2 cities while every other civ had 10, then the whole world declared war on me since i was super weak. 100 turns later, AI civs started loosing cities to me and that was the end for them. I am not excited by cultural etc challenges. I play civ and chess games in order to come out as the winner through conquest.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Afforess also stuck with his AND mod, since he didn't agree with c2c direction.

This is only partially true. He started to incorporate some of the Major AI changes C2C has developed. But... he had already told me in an EM that he was burned out on AND and Civ IV Modding. It was a means to further his Collegiate course work of becoming a programmer. But it had now become a "meaningless waste of time" . He was asked to contribute to C2C but did decline. And he did want to tidy up AND2. But of course that has not happened. AND 1.75c in his own words was his last Official Complete Mod.

JosEPh

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I also agree that C2C is way overdeveloped. It may be nice to have thousands of buildings and so on but it's almost impossible to play, especially on MP. There's no stable version, it's impossible to play a game from the start to the end with the same version because it's a work in progress. It's kind of playing a game were rules are changing constantly: not my kind of game, definetly. I hope that when developers will get tired of developing C2C, they will not leave it as an unfinished version; I hope there will be a final version with no bugs (or almost no bugs), that will be playable without having to deal with changing rules from one turn to another.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm a tester for C2C so I have a different perspective and opinion of course. Work is constantly being done to improve MP games.

Is it overdeveloped? No, it's still being refined. Is there a hundreds of bldgs? Yes there is and some will get pruned back as refinement continues.

If you use the SVN then yes you've agreed to be a tester where bug fixes and new changes are a daily thing. But with Max Compatibility Savegame feature your game can continue. Is it like playing with new rules? Sometimes very much so, especially when a major feature implementation is being introduced.

But the official release version for regular D/L is generally very stable and if a major bug is found a Patch is posted in the Patch Thread as soon as the fix is made. v24 has had 2 patches.

Now here comes my opinion from testing C2C since it's inception; There is some bloat that Must be corrected. Ideas for bldg chains that go not quite finished before a new idea is acted upon or implemented. This is a detraction.

On the other hand AI augmentation and improvement is continually being pushed forward. The drawback to seeing this enhancement Is the constantly changing state of the content. But it is very playable and can be quite good.

One item of major importance is the Designer's desire to have the Main Gamespeed be Snail. Only because of my insistence and persistent protestation has Epic gamespeed even been addressed as the team wanted only Marathon or longer to be used. This is were I disagree with the teams goal.

C2C is 2 Mods trying to be one. The Prehistoric Era Mod and then a regular BtS Mod based off of RoM/AND. Unfortunately in it's current state getting to Modern Era takes some real effort. Because if you play too aggressive the game is generally over by late Classical or early Medieval Eras. If you try to be a peacekeeper you can make the Modern Era to then have your Major push at Conquest.

But, even now the TransHuman and Galactic Eras are under development to further lengthen an already very long game. I personally do not see how with the addition of these 2 Eras that many players will ever make it too them.

I guess the most stand out achievement for C2C is it's innovations: Max Compat Saves, In development right now and in a base usable form is the Multi-maps, Plus much of the AI code has been rewritten eliminating many of the original BtS/Civ IV bugs that the unofficial patches didn't correct. New terrain features and unlocking some of the old limits on bldg usages. There is really guite a long list. What detracts from these achievements is the drive/need by some of the team to constantly add more features, which complicates the AI testing and improvement side for game balancing.

So overall it's a mixed bag and you can really make want you want out of it by the Options available at Game start or while in the game thru the BUG Options interface.

JosEPh

 

[gdambrauskas]

completely agree, the code side guys do awesome things, but with the amount of things pouring in from strategyfirst/dancignskohuld...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

completely agree, the code side guys do awesome things, but with the amount of things pouring in from strategyfirst/dancignskohuld...

StrategyOnly is the "owner" of the mod so what ever he does is official. Lately the only things he has been adding are Civilizations, Leaders and the new Hero stuff. The latter is a bit overpowered if you don't have the Great Commanders option on. (Which reminds me, I said I had a way to fix that.)

Me, most of the stuff I have added is available in RoM and RoM:AND already being AARanda's religions and wonders and my Subdued Animals mods. Oh and I did get some other mods converted on request
- kathy's Goody Islands
- Orion Vetran's - Health Care; Pirates and Merchants; Aviation and Wonders. I am still working on getting his Mine Warfare and Immigration mods working.
- Modifieda4 - basic Forestry and Basic Solar Panel mods.
- Tsentom1's python wonders - Ishtar and Temple of the Jaguar

However all of those were added well before v20 and we are on v24 now! So I have been slack and or working on balance since then.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

But, even now the TransHuman and Galactic Eras are under development to further lengthen an already very long game. I personally do not see how with the addition of these 2 Eras that many players will ever make it too them.

This is why I've said that C2C is overdeveloped. If no one is able to reach transhuman era, why is it there in first place? I bet most of the AND player also never reached transhuman era in AND too. Nobody had ever noted a couple of bugs in the last era exactly because nobody (or almost nobody) has ever reached it. What's the use in adding something that will never be used?
C2C is great for its diversity and general improvements that were also good for other mods. I've tried some games with some versions around v20, but I really don't like to change rules while I'm playing, especially in MP games. This is why I reverted back to AND; aside from some minor changes, I think AND, although a beta version, is very stable and surely more playable than C2C. As I said, I hope C2C will reach a final stable stage. When this happens, I hope developers will not leave bugs unattended; I know it's easier to add something new than to solve an old nasty bug, but what's more important to players?

 

[Hydromancerx]

how is 'bark gatherer', 'thin mushroom gatherer', 'thick mushroom gatherer' amazing? So many many buildings are identical giving generic 1 culture, 1 food, 1 commerce/science that diversifying is just not there. I just click, click on everything without giving things any thought. The mod has cool stuff, but generic stuff is way inflated in there.

There is just a Mushroom Gatherer in the prehistoric era. It goes obsolete by Agriculture tech. Its there to help you have some sort of food production since you cannot build farms yet.

There is no "thin mushroom gatherer" or "thick mushroom gatherer".

 

[jtanner28]

FYI:AND is making a comeback!

Hopefully we can get it to 2.0 and beyond.