Nobles' Club 323: Hannibal of Carthage

AcaMetis

Emperor
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May 21, 2018
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The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Hannibal of Carthage, whom we last played in NC 309. The Carthaginians start with Fishing and Mining.
  • Traits: Hannibal is Charismatic and Financial. Charismatic gives every city, Monuments and Broadcast Towers +1:) , and decreases the exp required for units to level by 25%. Financial adds +1:commerce: to any tile that already produces at least 2:commerce:.
  • The UB: The Cothon, a Harbor with +1:traderoute:, although it costs 25% more hammers to build (100:hammers: compared to 80:hammers: on Normal speed). An expensive, but powerful building if you've got access to foreign oversea trade routes. If you've got access to at least 2 seafood resources it'll also provide as much :health: as an Aqueduct at the same hammer cost.
  • The UU: The Numidian Cavalry, a Horse Archer with +50% versus Melee units and a free Flanking 1 promotion (+10% withdraw chance), although with only 5:strength: compared to a normal Horse Archer's 6:strength:, making them relatively less effective against non-melee units. Alternatively, build them to upgrade into Flanking I Cuirassiers or Cavalry (or Gunships I guess), as promotions will stick with a unit through upgrades.
And the start:

Spoiler map details :
Continents, Temperate climate, Medium sealevel.
Spoiler edits :
The usual strategic resource swaps, some unworkable Fish were moved to be workable, and the player's starting position was swapped with an AI.
Spoiler isolated? :
Not isolated.
The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 323 Hannibal Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.
Spoiler what is demigod :
The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.
Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :
You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.
Spoiler huts and events :
Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
 

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AcaMetis

Emperor
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May 21, 2018
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Maybe I'm missing something obvious (or not so obvious) but I don't see a reason not to SIP T0 to get workers/workboats and tech going ASAP. Warrior is kind of out of position to check for potential second city spots to the west, which is unfortunate because that's where shareable capitol food is, but I guess barring discoveries circle south around the Stone to check it out and get in position to check out the west in time for the first settler to be finished?

What do the experts think? :)
 

Fippy

Mycro Junkie
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
13,392
Good old seafood start micro question..;)
What's prolly best?
a) build workboat for fish first with plains forest
b) grow to size 2 on cows first, boat with 5 :hammers:
c) worker first to chop with BW
d) grow to size 2 and whip worker
 

soundjata

Be like water
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Jun 3, 2011
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2,096
grow > wb > worker maybe ?

Option A means 10t wb, grow on T13
Option B grow on T8, complete wb on T12, seems better :smug:
 
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soundjata

Be like water
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Jun 3, 2011
Messages
2,096
Deity T21
Spoiler :
Very interesting start
Followed opening B which clicked pretty well
Worked the clam for a turn while WB was on route to fish to allow research of BW in time with worker production (zero food and hammer overflow)
The dream comes true : copper !


There are so many different decisions to take this turn, I'm overwhelmed.
1. Improve copper or chop WB?
In the first case we should probably build a second worker now. (all in for production!)
In the later case we should grow on WB+warrior and go settler next i suppose (more commerce sooner)
> Best micro here? grow on cows in 4 or grow on clam in 5?

2. Research. Any alternative to TW?

3. City 2 spot. Any better than on the gold? (suggestion by my son lol)

We need an axe don't we?

Liz is putting 8EP / turn on us. We also need a grand plan to deal with that...
 
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sampsa

Ghost
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
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Location
Finland
Spoiler :

City 2 spot. Any better than on the gold? (suggestion by my son lol)
:pat:

Perhaps you need to scout NW and NE, south is rather unpromising for 2nd city.
 

Fippy

Mycro Junkie
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
13,392
Sound
Spoiler :
Between stone & gold looks good as utility city (if you would consider Pyras). Gold for extra happy, city should be fine later with floodplains.
I think Pyras look really good here with all those forests, and copper to help.
Food sharing city on bananas..not bad, but scouting needed too ofc.
 

elmurcis

Emperor
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
1,210
Location
Latvia
Imm, NTT, Mara, No vassal and No barbs
In conclusion - that was fun; 1045 AD Domination :sheep:
Spoiler Text spoilers :

Spoiler :

(I know, I know, "easy" settings :agree: )
Early opening felt like "regular" 2X WB opening into worker (marathon thing). But as soon as something was "there", thing was clear that with "that kind of" neighbor I got to do something. Aaand with stack of 8 units I was ready to go for initial strike. It took bunch of extra to finish final city in core of continent but it was fiiine.
Initial plan was not to continue "epic journey" and just settle down and do "regular things" but... since last strike was too successful (20, 20, 40 and 60 % fights won in row - RPG decided game, I swear!), there was no other choice as go forward for 2nd "that kind of" neighbor. Using single galley for transporting troops over while your economy is barely hanging felt more like "math exam" - how many turns into "grey" I can spend before running out of tiles to work for max commerce.
But decision was made and with midteen-ish axes (mixed with some spear for... reasons) it was time to "blast again" (and again - there was no further plan.. yet... just using "cautios" diplo stance to avoid potential future diplo hit). Aaand 2nd neighbor was gone too (with help of some chops and whips like usual). Big decision time was there - "3rd is bigger, wider and might have some extra hiding in fog (didn't had access to trade network so not sure - metal or not?).
But seeing power ratio and no sudden spike in power from graph (you know, AI tends to "spike" it quickly after gaining metal and "building SoD") - time for 3rd and final strike (this with ~20s axes (+some spears). This was more strightforward move and ended up with "a bit too many leftovers" on field. In total killed ~45 units (some 35 archers and some chariots/metal)
At moment final city felt, I was at few gold per turn income at 0% research WITH GLH and pottery still tiny tiny bit away and already working pretty much every commerce tile on map. But after some turns of "nothingness", cities finally could start to work cottages and rest was more about "how badly I can micro this but still do fine".

Early wonders were Stonehedge, GLH (and Pyramids - not exactly planned and even without stone.... and I was running US for rest of game anyways, "pro strategy" :coffee:). Later joined with HGardens (really nice "recovery" wonder - can whip out bunch of extra workers in short time from fresh cities) and MoM (very strong wonder with wide empire).

At 1 AD I was at 32 cities (for my games that is A LOT :lol: specially with 2 evenly sized "empires" on each landmass - "no vassal" option is amazing for such situations). And at that point I also realized that "my land" is enough for Domination. So purely focused (more or less) on "what high score I can scrap from this" game. Used few final settlers to fill "useless" part of land.
So it was 1045 AD domination with 647K score - :woohoo:

Spoiler Pictures :







Now I can enjoy veterans playing this :popcorn:
 

soundjata

Be like water
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
2,096
@Fippy @sampsa
Spoiler :
If I were to pursue Mids, I'd settle on stone I think (can't afford improving that tile)
Now gold maybe is not needed (because CHAR) but I would like to block Elizabeth who is rather close south.
Floodplains in this game always attract me and I want to settle them. Maybe I shouldn't..
Scouting east and west : yes but it is dangerous out there :o
 

soundjata

Be like water
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Jun 3, 2011
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@sampsa
Spoiler :
That could be nice to convert commerce into Liz techs indeed.
I'm torn with wonders actually.
Mids can be attained easily ; GLH could be a killer if north is confirmed islands.

However, I've been disappointed many a times because I had space for expansion but prioritized an early wonder instead.
Maybe those fit better in constrained situations, which is not the case on this map currently.

I can imagine we are semi isolated with Liz. (the map is 1000+ tiles btw)
If we don't take counter measures (now) she'll end up with 12 cities to our 6, which I would rather avoid by aggressively blocking whatever land is between us.
 

Implo

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 21, 2021
Messages
49
Good old seafood start micro question..;)
What's prolly best?
a) build workboat for fish first with plains forest
b) grow to size 2 on cows first, boat with 5 :hammers:
c) worker first to chop with BW
d) grow to size 2 and whip worker

ref. Soundjatas you get boat fastest with b)

regards to c), or d)
I do think d) is better than c) inn most cases. BW is a 15-17 t tech.

if b) is better than d)
It depends if you have multiple fish and clams is they in your first ring (0t travel).
I do think d) is better with multiple fish (faster regrowth back to size 2)

But in this case I think b) is best. Get size 2 get the fish and make sure you have 2 spare food. (for 4 turn regrowth) whip first worker.
Chop second boat.
 

soundjata

Be like water
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
2,096
@Implo thank you
I realize something is terribly wrong with my T21
Spoiler :

Why is it that I research BW only on T20?

Because I only started researching it on T6 and dumped 51 :science: into Agri for nothing
Must have been really :smoke:
>> Reload T5...

So yay, BW is a 17 turn tech.
Starting worker on T12 (wb en route) means it can be whipped T18 (after switching T17)

Growing Carthage again to size 2 will take 5 turns (25/22)
We should aim at completing WB#2 (with a chop) in 4 turns so that Carthage can immediately work the clam at size 2 and grow in 3 turns (3+7x3=24)
This requires 6 :hammers: overflow on the worker after whip (6+4+20=30), which is guaranteed : after the whip our production (working fish) is 6 :hammers:

This brings a very intriguing micro question, because during the 5 turns we are slow building the worker, by working the default tiles, we'll have 3:hammers: to spare, on top of those 6.
We could choose to convert those 3 :hammers: into 9 :commerce: via the unimproved clam!
This looks like a good deal if it does not delay the settlement of city#2.

More calculations are needed :scan:
 
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soundjata

Be like water
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Jun 3, 2011
Messages
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Update T58
Spoiler :

Fending off waves of barbs coming from the east required 2 axes and some dexterity (reloads)

We could have certainly made the situation simpler by pluncking city 2 on a hill over there but...

We now have a satisfying control over the floodplain area :smug:

Early wonders are just wishes at this stage but Carthage will attempt GLH.
It can whip (has a granary) and still has lots of chops to spare

Next city might still be for blocking Liz :lmao:
 

sampsa

Ghost
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
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Location
Finland
My best regards to your son!
 

soundjata

Be like water
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Jun 3, 2011
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Wait I'm changing my opening :bounce:

T55
Spoiler :

Pardon my reload but my previous attempt was leading nowhere I think (desert...)

Now we have GLH and a better city site 2 (@Fippy suggestion)
A second worker at size 3 works like a charm. Chop and mine. No whip until this turn.

So far GLH has improved our commerce by zero exactly :lmao:
 
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CarpoolKaraoke

Warlord
Joined
May 2, 2021
Messages
203
Spoiler T68 :



T60 GW + GLH combo?

Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG


Coastal trade commerce up, empty city spamming starts. Maybe... Numids?
Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG





 

soundjata

Be like water
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Jun 3, 2011
Messages
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@CarpoolKaraoke Nice combo !
Spoiler :
Map size is quite big so I would think expand first as much as possible > collect Liz land a little bit later.
 
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