Nobles' Club 373: Mao Zedong of China

@BornInCantaloup
Spoiler :
Nice plan :goodjob:

On the wonder front I got two shrines + MOM + parthenon + SOZ from Egypt conquest :drool:
(AP is confusionist)

I could go Pacifism to generate a couple of GS (chemistry) & maybe a great merchant (upgrades!) and reach cannons quickly.

Edit: yes I want literature for Heroic (Beijing looks well suited for it) and maybe chop National epic somewhere...

I don't think I'll need more than 1 golden age or tech after steel :devil:

Edit+: I could probably bank on Mansa peace vassaling provided I have more power and more border tension with him :hmm:
(i need 8 or 9 tiles with my culture in his cities BFC or something like that?)
@Kaitzilla could you kindly remind me of these details? :hug:
 
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Spoiler t46 Immortal :

One of those important decision moments. I just finished BW and plopped down city 3, and it turned out an archer was right outside my new border. The average number of cities is currently 2.57, so I think barbs can enter? It could mean this is already a loss and I should reload to the turn just before I settled.
Civ4ScreenShot0091.JPG


From the beginning, I teched AH, TW, Pottery, BW. Went worker first, working the stone (whether I worked that or the floodplain, I calculated that I could only start improving the pig on t14). Worker 1 built a mine on the stone for 2 turns before walking to the pig.

Then I built 2 warriors while growing to size 3, and once I reached that I went for a settler, working the pig, the stone mine and the floodplain. After that I built another worker and then another settler, which went on to settle Guangzhou. Mids are tempting but the land is lush and cottages will carry my economy, so I feel like focusing on expansion. When it comes to future plans, if the archer doesn't ruin my day, I'm pretty sure I'm going CKNs, so Oracling MC would be quite nice, to then bulb Machinery. That means Priesthood straight after Writing. Will probably go for a six-city setup in that case. This whole plan hinges on my having iron, though.
 
Out of curiosity, how would you rush the UU on high difficulty? E.g. Metal Casting after Writing, and trade it for the techs that block the GS Machinery bulb (Alpha/Math/Aest), or there is a better way?
 
Out of curiosity, how would you rush the UU on high difficulty? E.g. Metal Casting after Writing, and trade it for the techs that block the GS Machinery bulb (Alpha/Math/Aest), or there is a better way?
Get Alpha and Maths through trade, only Meditation and Fishing block the Machinery bulb. Try to Oracle MC.
 
T151
Spoiler :
GP generation exceeds expectations:
T111 GE (engineering)
T140 GS (golden age 1)
T144 GA (keep)
T147 GM (1700 gold mission)
T149 GM (on the way to Utrecht for another)
T150 GS (combine with GA for golden age 2)

I found an acceptable way of benefiting from the situation at T140:
No cease fire (finish Ramses in 5 turns)
Golden age immediately and get out of representation into HR to appease Thebes populace (28 angry faces).
140-thebes.jpg

Start pumping out GP (starve for a turn, no choice). Elephantine will do the same (with merchants) next turn.

With Egypt gone, we settle for (representation, bureau, caste, mercantilism, pacifism) civics.

Now we have an interesting theater around Xian.
(Xian is the antique capitol of Qin the yellow but we are Mao the hair and our capitol is officially Beijing :shifty: )
151.jpg

Blue stack sury (800 :hammers: ) and yellow stack capac (750 :hammers: ) are attacking brown stack mansa (inside walls and castle 1000 :hammers: )
Our stack is around 3000 :hammers: and comparable to Monty's (not pictured)

So the short term plan is DOW willem in 2 turns after completing the gold mission in Utrecht.

What to do with Monty? Send him on Willem as well? Somewhere else? Leave him alone?
151-monty.jpg

This is the cheapest bribe he would currently take but he will attack anyone for the right price. And we still have chemistry on him. It would certainly be efficient to lure his stack somewhere and obliterate it.

By the way we've traded naughts in the last 12 turns except this.
145-trade.jpg


Tech situation:
151-tech.jpg

No one is close to rifling :)

Beijing (heroic epic)
151-b.jpg


Shanghai (science machine. no unit production except one archer initially)
151-s.jpg

Forge = big waste of hammers here.

the rest of the land.
151-land.jpg

We have 16 workers. Their mission is to workshop the west essentially.

Keep increasing hammer production without whipping :o
151-demo.jpg


Edit: my strategy worked because of luck mostly (DOWs flying above my head all the time and slow global science pace)
Still satisfying :)
 
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T75 :
Spoiler :

I'm not messing around with Masonry because I don't have forests to chop.

Good point, I'm at 1AD on demigod

Spoiler :

mao1ad.png


I build Pyramids in capital but having to work the copper/stone slowed down my cottage growth, and I got the GS instead of the GE on a 50/50 roll, so still had to tech Aest / etc. Went fairly fast with Representation scientists (got Machinery around turn 95), but still.

Also grabbing the gold spot was useless as Ramesses' holy city took the gold almost immediately. I just got it back now.

I didn't wait for Engi, but still getting favorable odds with a 5:1 kill:loss ratio for the cho-ko-nus. Some of it was when Monty also DoWed just to suicide his 10-melee stack against a few CKNs in Guangzhou.
 
@soundjata

Spoiler :

Nice-looking empire! Maybe the most favorable part of this map is having Egypt as the perfect first war target. The resulting empire is nicely compact and almost China-shaped too!
 
Thanks this is very helpful. I had to remember what I did early game.

Spoiler :

Animal Husbandry, then The Wheel and Pottery before Bronze Working. I built my settler at size 2 (pigs + stone mine) then a worker I think to cottage Beijing while the first worker was off to city 2. With that tech path I think settler before 2nd worker makes sense but... that makes my choice of city 2 even worse. With the AH-Pottery tech path I should have obviously focused on the pig-river and sheep-river sites, I realize now. :)
 
@BornInCantaloup
Spoiler :

So, the only road you actually need to connect those cities is the one SW of Beijing :) Not sure what your tech situation was at the time but that could impact your worker orders (unless you had some to spare).
Yes, I had worker turns to spare and wanted to speed up settler movement :)
AH->The Wheel makes absolute sense. But going BW -> Pottery next would be my prefered option.
I see your point, and it makes sense, but I saw the bare floodplains around future city 2 and that triggered Pottery first for me. I also inherently dislike the idea of farming floodplains when I have a decent food source available and replacing them shortly after. But I didn't do the math on this.
 
Deity:
Spoiler :
I went on the PH, but not the stone. Yes it is a 3 :hammers: city tile, but improving the pig is limited by researching AH, thus settling on the stone would actually delay improving the pigs by one turn. I scouted SE with the warrior, so I did not see the northern rice, which actually makes the stone settle much better. I proceeded to mine the stone for a 5 :hammers: tile, mine a grassland hill, and just build workers and settlers in Beijing for the early game.

I made one relatively big mistake in going AH -> BW, as my economy could not support my production. Getting TW first would have been much better, Pottery before BW would also probably have been better than BW directly. I did not whip anything before granaries anyway and only chopped a few forests, although getting the copper for Shanghai (NW pigs) really helped. I never saw any barb archer with a few warriors to fogbust.

Here I am at T58:
mao_t58-png.723001


As visible, I could not use my forests yet and Willem settled the NE.

I decided to go for Cuirs, due to the ample land available and thus went into peaceful teching mode. This way greatly helped by everyone except Monty going Hindu and Monty soon attacking Willem. I moved my Capital to Guangzhou, 1N of the sheep. This allowed me to go Caste/Pacifism outside of a golden age, as there was nothing I wanted to build, netting me 3GS, 1GM and one almost finished GP that I earmarked for a GA.

mao_empire_1ad-png.723002


In 1 AD things are fine, although there are few resource trades available and I made a mistake with Chengdu.
Spoiler why is Chengdu a mistake :
It should have gone 1N or 1NE, leaving space for a city on the desert hill to work cottages for Guangzhou.


The obvious targets for Cuirs are Rammy and Willem, with me favouring Rammy due to the longer border and him being closer to culture.

So I bulbed Philo, double bulbed Education (I traded for Machinery earlier, so no Lib bulbing.), but had to Lib Nationalism, since the Tech pace was quite fast, with all techers being in such a love festival. I did trade rather actively, even giving out MilTrad shortly before my attack for PP, Const, eco, as there was no way this would end on Cuirs. I bribed Mansa (who cancelled being a vassal to Willem after Willem switched religion), on Willem to keep my back clear, later bribing Willem off Mansa as Sury joined in and Monty went after Willem again. I did attack Rammy on T154, and here we are on T155:

t155_attack_rammy-png.723003


I did somewhat underestimate Rammy, as he had lots of cultural defence and I had to wait for reinforcements around Thebes, which is bad when attacking with Cuirs. Attacking one or two turns later would have been better, but that is with hindsight. I left him Giza for keeping the culture on others and trading me some tech. In the around 10 turns to build up and 15 turns to conquer him I went form being up Lib, Gunpowder, MT, sharing PP only with Huayna (he was friendly before switching religions), and few having Constitution to the non Monty rest of the world being close to Assembly line. Also Monty started plotting while in enforeced peace with Willem and stacked on my border.

Meanwhile I made another mistake, as this is one of the few situations where AL before communism would have been good, due to Monty plotting. I did the standard Commu -> AL line and barely had factories up when Monty attacked. (Yes I should have built some Infantries before.) Fortuantely he only had 3 trebs in his massive Rifles/Cavs stack, so I could have let him take a city and suicide his stack on the next, but I did not stop to think and had the genious idea of throwing my cuirs at his rifles (on a hill) to flank all but one treb out, buying me time. This did work, but nonetheless was a terrible idea. He suicided his stack into CG3 Infantry.

I did capitulate him while fighting of Willem (In a four turn war I ended via AP), went for Tanks and ran over Huayna, Willem, Mansa in that order to win domination.
 

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@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

How did you manage to avoid a holy city in Heliopolis? Did Ramses fail to found a religion in your game? I lost that western gold tile to the holy city culture pretty early in the game and didn't reclaim it until i captured the city around 1 AD.
 
T75, and another decision moment:

Spoiler :

I decided to go for the Mids given the terrible happiness situation. It's due next turn (I just 3-pop whipped it). I missed out on the Oracle (was teching Poly when Ramesses built it). Other than that I have a bit of a dilemma: there is a lot of land to settle, to the extent that I can only see Egypt's borders so far. So I'm not quite sure anymore about CKN rush. On the other hand, Rammy is close and might cause trouble, so maybe this is a good occasion for a city gift? Right now my slider is at 0 waiting for Aesthetics, but with the Mids CoL might be better? Decisions, decisions... Btw, I know I need more workers, but I'm just waiting for the whip unhappiness to run out in Shang and Guang (which will coincide with the turn after anarchy from switching to Rep).
Civ4ScreenShot0093.JPG

 
@jorissimo
Spoiler :
Why did you settle Xian? As you remarked there is a huge amount of land available and you settle a helper city that can only work one additional tile.

Rammy is relatively peaceful and does not plot at pleased, so gifting him a city is probably a bad idea. He still has room for expansion in the north and it will probably be some time (if ever) until he starts plotting. You are not even a land target (yet). If he starts plotting, just switch into his religion and beg.

I would advice you to grab the good land.

The main point of Aesthetics is trade bait to get Alpha. The AI will frequently tech CoL before Aesth, thus it is a riskier plan. Additionally, IMHO you do not have enough high-food spots to need the extra slots ASAP. Also running specialists slow your expansion.
 
@Izuul
Spoiler :
I'm pretty the deity AI will settle its second site based on the direction its initial scout explores. (and it needs to "see" the future city site)

Now what decides the movement of AI units on turn 1? This is probably quite random...

Maybe something like (pass random test 1 => move east or else pass random test 2 => move south ; etc...) and this is very speculative but gives me a nice justification for the (small sample) result we get => only BIC was "lucky enough" that Ramses scout decided to explore west instead of east on turn 1.
 
Spoiler :

Yeah, I see in BIC's last update that Ramses did indeed have a holy city (double holy city no less), but it was to the west rather than the east. I'll have to check my game to compare his city placements. One thing of note is that he didn't found a religion until Monotheism in my game. I don't remember the city names in my game though so it's entirely possible that his placement was the same (or very similar) and the religion just got founded in his 3rd city instead of his 2nd since it was founded later.
 
Spoiler :
For what it's worth I stopped checking where Deity AIs planted there second city a long time ago, because more than once they consistently placed it in a specific spot during testing only to go in a completely different direction in some - not even all, just some - people's games and throwing off all of my plans :crazyeye:.
 
@a pen-dragon and @BornInCantaloup :
Spoiler :

Why did you settle Xian? As you remarked there is a huge amount of land available and you settle a helper city that can only work one additional tile.

Hint, hint : there's a corn to the west :groucho:
My reasoning for settling Xian where I did was that there were too many floodplains for Guang and Shang to work with the low happy cap (although Rep will change that) and wanted to prevent Ramesses from settling in that gap. It was also cheap and safe. For the western corn spot, barbs were a concern, but settling it is the top priority right now.
 
@jorissimo
Spoiler :
Nice. In your position I would whip settlers and workers (1 pop whip) wherever / whenever possible :)
 
Possible plan going forward:
Spoiler :

Given that I have land to settle and develop, I think I might forego any bulbs and do a normal Henrik-style Engi rush whereby one goes CS first and then Engineering, getting MC and Machinery on the way by teching or trading. In this scenario a GP can be used to speed up research around Machinery, but I could also use it to bulb Philo and use that to trade for Feudalism and stuff. This strategy is more flexible in the sense that I can pursue a normal Lib game if the circumstances favor that by the time I get to CS. In this case going for CoL can actually be quite worthwhile because on Immortal the AI can sometimes tech very slowly and you're waiting for them to get any techs you could almost have researched yourself in the meantime if you hadn't gone for Aesthetics.
 
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