Nobles Club CVII - Qin Shi Huang

[JSS]

Immortal/Space/1903

Played around for fun and tested some of the mechanics that I've not yet used properly in this game.

Spoiler :

Built the Mids and GLH in my capital and expanded the coast in my peninsula. Double bulbed Astronomy and went from there to lib Steel. Then I got to Economics (got there first too), and built all the gold multiplier buildings and custom houses in my coastal cities. Switched to Universal Suffrage, Caste (for the workshops that I'd built everywhere with enough food), Free Market and Theocracy and rush buyed a bunch of cannons and grenadiers and wiped my continent with ease, even though Wang had peace vassaled to Darius. I took all of Wang's cities and most of Persia.

From there I went to Corporation and Medicine and built Sid's Sushi in Seoul (where the buddhist shrine was), and spread it into all my cities. I got about 30 fish/clam/crab/rice resources in total and my cities grew nicely. I thought I could win diplo with my huge lead in population and with a friendly Elizabeth, but I got 50 votes short on the resolution.

Realising diplo was not an option without a military invasion, I went to space in 1903. Elizabeth was about 40 turns away from culture victory, so just for fun I bombed her culture cities with spies for a couple of turns while waiting for the spaceship to build.

 

[Habitus]

Will try out this map "soon" if i can pull myself away from X-Com for awhile Sounds good from the non-spoiler chat.

 

[Giant Wolfman]

Ragequit because of too many stupid mistakes.

Spoiler :

I built up a force of CKN and was able to take Persepolis, Pasargadae, and two other cities while razing a fifth Persian city. Unfortunately, I had made some demands from WK (completely unnecessarily), and he decided to declare on me after I had beaten down Darius. I was shifting around units when he declared, and he seized Persepolis and Susa when each had a unit or two in them. I probably could have retaken the cities and squeaked out a win, but I was frustrated by the repeated mistakes and decided to start over. It was 750 AD, and I still didn't have CS (though neither did Darius or WK, and hadn't met other AI's).

Attempt #2 (Emperor again, now at 540AD--too focused in and forgot to stop at 1AD)
Looking for feedback again, though I recognize I'm posting a later save than might be wise.

Spoiler :

Decided to try a more typical route this time. Beijing and Shanghai went in same spots as my original game, while city 3 went where VOU suggested, then I settled the fish/copper/jungle city, then the sheep island. Research went AH-Fishing-Wheel-BW-Mas-Sailing.

I've built GW, Mids, GLH, and squeezed out what feels like a late Oracle (725BC) for CoL. Almost had Hanging gardens but I'll take the fail gold. Also built Maoi three times (finishing the last one) for lots of fail gold to fund research. GL, Parthenon, MOM also went to me, and I'm close to Colossus (could let this one sit for the fail gold). I just popped a new GS and am not sure what to do with him. Partial bulbing EDU seems premature, but I'm not sure if I should academy him in my GP farm or one of the cottage sites that are coming online in the jungle. Also not sure on civics

I'm at 7 cities, with 2-3 more available to the north. Another possibility: There's a lot of unclaimed land to the North of Darius. Is it worth it to ship some settlers over there? I probably don't need the land, and the maintenance might hurt me. On the other hand, I hate to see Darius expand up there, even if he would be grabbing it late. Thoughts?

Cities:

Tech:

Unclaimed land to north of Persia:

(Not-so-short) Summary:
-Should I reach for the land to Darius's north, or be content with my 9-10 cities? This is probably dependent on how I want to win. If culture, doesn't make sense. If military, why not seize peacefully rather than have to fight thru it?

-Civics/religion: I'm inclined to stay in pacifism and caste for GPP, but that does mean taking some diplomatic hits as neither Darius nor WK on confucian, and their religions haven't spread enough to me.

-Newest GS: Long term Nanjing is going to make me a lot of commerce, so academying it makes the most sense to me. Guangzhou has better science at the moment though.

-Colossus: Finish it out for the GPP and boost mainly to Xian, or build within one turn for the failgold?

Save attached

 

[Marvinlegend]

I'm making a LP, but with german commentary (game in english)

Emperor, 1575 AD, practically won.

Spoiler :

Playing on Emperor, fairly easy game, the start is really good. Siped with my capital, second city grabbed stone and marmor and the wonderspam begun. I thought about Cho-Ko-Nu attack, but both oppenents are fairly far away for that and there're are so many wonders, built even Chicken Pizza for culture pressure. Wang Kon got totally boxed in by Dairus -> peacevassal. I got a big tech lead, used lib for Astronomics for first one to ocean routes + GLH -> moneys!
Third city grabbed early copper, but with GW and ~10 warriors fogbusting, wasn't even needed. Fourth and fifth (Xian/Nanjing) sealed of the north to me for peaceful REXing.
Dareius had very much land, but didn't use it. I realized about 400 AD that he didn't get to the north peninsula because of two barb cities. If I'd noticed about 10 turns earlier, I could have taken the cities, so I only got a little part of the peninsula, but that are three cities, that aren't Dareius'

Nothing very special, as said, very much wonders. Rush for island domination would've been possible at almost any time, but I wanted to make a totally peaceful game, hadn't one of those for a long time.

I'll build up some ICBMs before the KI gets the Tech and then probably forbid them through UN, so I've got some surprises for attackers, but I don't think there's a really threat. I got rifling, AI not more than Muskets.

 

[Doshin]

I'm making a LP, but with german commentary (game in english)

 

[Marvinlegend]

First parts should be online by tomorrow, perhaps watching without commentary can also be ... informative. If I got the time, I'll try an english after-commentary, my english knowledge is more than enough, but my pronunciaton is ... pretty bad.

 

[Doshin]

I'll watch them for the combination of Civ + German audio. Most of my (passive) German comes via Harry Potter audiobooks, so this way I can acquire a new and equally obscure set of technical terms

 

[dalamb]

When my current spate of busy-ness is done I expect to spend some time getting ready for the third cycle, but after that I'm going to make one more attempt to finish an NC game before the next one gets posted. I figured I'd get a head start by reading other people's posts rather than going in blind. It seems to me there are several strategic approaches people have suggested, so I want to make sure I understand them. Let me know if the following is basically correct. I'd be playing at Monarch.

Spoiler :

We're on a peninsula where many of the city cites are coastal, which makes the GLH a priority (almost) regardless of chosen victory condition. The AIs are fairly far away, which makes early war difficult, but gives us a bunch of land to expand into -- enough for 6 cities, which is the min for a cultural victory by the standard strategies (by which I mean jesusin's massive analysis). However, jesusin says to avoid generating GPP for anything but great artists, and the likely eventual GM from the GLH would pollute the GPP pool -- especially if one builds the Colossos in the same city. Is the GLH important enough to build even with a cultural VC?

One VC that benefits a lot from IND-augmented wonders is space. Is that any easier or harder on this map than is typical? I used to like peaceful space victories a lot when I was playing below noble, but there's enough warfare at Monarch that I suspect I'd be on the defensive a lot (I'm not that great at diplomacy yet).

One possibility for securing the continent is a cho-ko-nu attack. One of you built a massive stack and succeeded, but others avoided it. For a just-barely-Monarch player is it a reasonable strategy? It's possible to bulb Machinery with a GS if you research the right techs, oracle Metal Casting, and avoid Fishing; is that stupid on this map because it would delay the GLH too much? Alternatively, how tricky is it, if the GLH is up and running ASAP, to get a pyramid-and-forge-based GE to bulb Machinery? Do you have to go for the 'mids really early, which would likely mean fewer cities at that point in the game?

I've seen people's maps, so advice on city location isn't any more of a spoiler for me than I've already spoiled. Is there a GP farm location other than the capital? Is making the capital a GP farm a bad idea? (I'd think so, since you lose so many good tiles to work).

vranasm has been advising me to push for more cities faster than I usually do. What's a reasonable number to aim for on this map for the initial REX?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

@ dalamb

Spoiler :

vranasm has been advising me to push for more cities faster than I usually do. What's a reasonable number to aim for on this map for the initial REX?

9-10, I think.

Capital
Three cities north of the jungle.
Three coastal jungle cities (two on the east coast, one to the west)
Island Magic
Two or Three cities in the north, depending on whether you want the cow/crabs feeding one city or two.

At some handicap, the AI is going to start beating you to some of those locations, but at Monarch I would expect you to get most of them.

There's also the possibility of another city in the center of the penninsula, if you need it/ have the worker turns needed to dig it out of the green.

 

[dalamb]

@VOU:

Spoiler :

Wow! All that on an initial REX! I think I have to try it just to experiment with vranasm's advice. Giant Wolfman and Choggy reported crashed economies, but I think that was without the GLH. Maybe a 2-phase REX pushing out the north-of-jungle and island cities, then the GLH before expanding further?

 

[WelshGandalf]

@dalamb

Spoiler :

I think you'd struggle to crash the economy with GLH at Monarch. Remember to build a few cottages too.
I definitely had issues at Emperor but I didn't have GLH. Super-scientists via pyramids helped though.

I GE-bulbed machinery. You can definitely avoid fishing if you want to go the GS way to machinery though; I didn't get fishing for quite a while; we do have plenty of land-based food sources.

As for other GP farms, well there's fish/bananas on the west coast that also has a lot of riverside tiles you could farm. Not great but the capital is such an awesome production site, I couldn't use it for anything else.

 

[dalamb]

@WelshGandalf:

Spoiler :

Thanks. I've become nervous about delaying fishing until I get all of the oracle (for metal casting), the GS, and the other prereqs to a GS machinery bulb, since it might mean giving up the GLH even at Monarch. I might try it once with the notion of backing up if it fails, but I back up too much (one of my many reasons for not finishing games).

 

[Silverbow]

@dalamb

Spoiler :

I built the lighthouse at immortal and had no trouble with economy at all, rexing to 11 cities

 

[cseanny]

@ Dalamb

Don't get too caught up in how many cities you can expand to. Just try to balance expansion with research and tech progress. I.E., in my Emperor game I only expanded to 8 cities but built Oxford before 500AD which put my empire wide research at over 700 early in the game (and already got Kremlin built at 1000AD), plus built enough CKN's to take over a neighbor right after Oxford was done.....etc etc.

Just saying, no point in expanding to 14 cities by 500 AD if your research and tech is significantly behind. Just go for a nice balance for your land and situation. Sometimes it might be 15 cities, other times it might be 6 >

 

[ben-jammin]

@ Dalamb

Don't get too caught up in how many cities you can expand to. Just try to balance expansion with research and tech progress. I.E., in my Emperor game I only expanded to 8 cities but built Oxford before 500AD which put my empire wide research at over 700 early in the game (and already got Kremlin built at 1000AD), plus built enough CKN's to take over a neighbor right after Oxford was done.....etc etc.

Just saying, no point in expanding to 14 cities by 500 AD if your research and tech is significantly behind. Just go for a nice balance for your land and situation. Sometimes it might be 15 cities, other times it might be 6 >

This is really important to win regularly on immortal or deity, to know when you've reached the point of diminishing returns. Often a very efficiently set-up 6 city empire can get to cuirs or cavalry or cannons or whatever you want much more rapidly than a larger empire. That larger empire will be great once it's set up, and have a lot more production, but if it comes hundreds of years later it actually amounts to a slower win. Assuming of course that you leverage whatever military advantage you were going for properly.

For example that theoretical 6 city empire might bulb its way to cuirassiers 300 years sooner than the larger, more productive empire. Six cities means you obviously can't whip and chop and otherwise produce as many of those cuirassiers as fast, but those cuirassiers are at least 3x more valuable per unit for all the turns they face longbows and muskets than against rifles.

 

[Kingjester1]

I finally got a chance to finish this (been super busy lately).

Emperor/Epic/Choose Religions, Culture Victory in ~1850 AD (can't remember exact date).

Spoiler :

This was a fun map for me. I haven't gone with a peaceful play like culture in a while.

I SIP and did a standard Worker -> Warriors to 3 -> Settler build. I started with research AH to get those cows hooked up and my initial warrior head west then south after hitting the coast. The early scouting pretty much sealed the deal for a culture victory attempt.

We are sitting on a peninsula with a Financial leader in Wang Kon and a strong military leader in Cyrus. With the distance involved early war is out and the best chance would be with cho's. However, we have both resources for wonder building and we ourselves are Industrious. I figured at this point I should simply rex out quickly to the 6 city minimum and go for culture since we are so well set up for it (Protective is extra gravy on this, as we'll be impossible to dislodge come the medieval era and onward).

I settled my 2nd city on the coast due west from the cap. I built the 'Mids there and decided to pick up Sailing so I could build the GLH in my cap. After those two wonders were in, I rexed some coastal cities to the south and north, including the island city NE of the cap for some extra trade route income.

The play after this was standard. I was super nice to my neighbors to avoid war and explored via a work boat. I was able to build several wonders in my first two cities, including the Great Library and the Parthenon, making it easier to generate more great people. I ran scientist specialists everywhere to maximize my science output and settled most GPs I got early on into the capital, which became my GP site.

My biggest misplay of the game had to be that I didn't save a Great Scientist to build Philo for a 3rd religion. Cyrus and Wang Kon each founded a religion, so I was able to get 2 of them spread throughout my empire. I had a chance to get Philo first before anyone else, but I didn't save a GS to bulb it and ultimately didn't reach it first. This slowed my culture pace a fair amount in my 3rd city. My other mistake was waiting too long to start cottage spamming to make strong use of the culture slider. I waited until after I had picked up Liberalism to start replacing farms with cottages, and this was a huge mistake, I could have easily started earlier without any kind of penalty.

Ultimately though it didn't matter. I eventually met all other civs and put off Corporation so that the GLH remained in effect all game (it's amazing how many routes you can pull off with harbors and customs houses in your coastal cities). I was declared on only once by Brennus when he came over with a laughable stack of medieval units with some grenadiers mixed in. He was quickly trounced and never declared again.

All in all, this was a fun map to play. I wouldn't change my plan at all in hindsight, I would just simply plan and play better in the early game to maximize the culture strategy.

 

[dalamb]

Meant to stop at AD 500 like the xOTMs usually do. There is a question about SoD construction.

Spoiler :

There were 3 previous attempts where I messed up in various ways, such as missing the Oracle due to fiddling around with other stuff in Beijing first, and taking far too long to expand at the start. In this fourth try I wound up expanding to four cities reasonably quickly, though slower than some other people. Three jungle cities had to wait for Iron Working, but I managed to get them in time before Wang (! not Darius this time !) expanded northwards.

I got a scout from the first hut and managed to squeeze him past Darius to the northwest and picked up 3 more huts there -- so my game is even less comparable to anyone else' than a usual huts/events would be.

Both my neighbours have been sending me missionaries so I have Buddhism and Judaism in most cities. I founded Taoism but haven't spread it beyond the holy city and Beijing. I built the GLH and Oracle in Beijing, and the 'mids and Hanging Gardens in my second city. Beijing generated a Great Merchant who recently bulbed Civil Service, and Shanghai gave a Great Engineer who bulbed Machinery. This means I can build macemen and cho-ko-nus instead of an all-CKN army like Oz-Man apparently did. I'm not terribly far from Construction either. Ever since Currency I've been building wealth in Shanghai to keep up my tech rate, but it'll pause to build its share of an SoD soon.

Spoiler status :

• My territory. I've neglected to send my scout back through the AIs' territory so I don't know where some of their cities are.
  
  
• Techs
  
  

I was originally planning for a Space victory and think I still will do so. Switching to culture seems possible given 3 religions (plus the possibility of Islam; Christianity and Hinduism and Confucianism are on another continent), but my GPP pools are "polluted" enough that I'll miss some of the GAs that jesusin says are the heart of his strategy. I think I need to eliminate Wang; I'll have more territory than Darius then, or close to it. Plus, Wang has Literature (meaning I'm in danger of losing the Great Library) and Construction (meaning he'll have defensive cats soon). After than I don't know whether to continue to take over my continent or leave Darius as a trading partner, but I don't think I'll get too many techs from him.

For the SoD: do I really need any cho-ko-nu if I have maces and catapults? I suppose I could kill of culture with a few catapults (which therefore wouldn't be damaged) and attack with CKNs, but sacrificial cats are cheaper (50 vs 60 ) So what do I do with CKN? Seems wrong to skip them.

Query about a couple of city placements:

Spoiler :

Here's the land to my north.

It seems like light green is a lousy location, but it's galling to lose out on the cows. What about blue? It will get a lot of commerce from those furs but has no production, and only +3F from the crabs if I build a lighthouse. Should I wait for Universal Suffrage? It needs a monument and a lighthouse at a minimum.

I'm guessing the island city is the best place for Moai.

Edit: attachment deleted

 

[Smilingrogue]

Immortal, normal speed, no huts, no events, upto 1 AD. I think I may have over-expanded and crashed my economy just a little bit.

Spoiler :

Settled in Place. Landed the Great Lighthouse in 1200 BC.

Spoiler :

Rex'd like a maniac, completely ignoring maintenance after that. At one point, had 4 gold in treasury and -4 GPT.

Landed the Pyramids in 850 BC.

Spoiler :

I originally debated just taking the fail-gold. But then decided to build them and switch into Rep. Good thing too as rep powered scientists are currently saving my bacon.

I teched Aesthetics and traded it for IW, Alpha and some change. Current tech situation:

Spoiler :

I am teching Drama in hopes of trading it for something worthwhile. I also plan to chase Music, build the Sistine and see if I can pursue Culture.

Current tech situation:

Spoiler :

I have 11 cities right now and I have no intention of stopping the REX. I am even going to sail galleys through Darius' borders and settle his wing.

Wang is in war prep. But I am confident he is going for Darius as Darius was in Christianity when Wang's fist went up. I also begged Pottery and Archery off them. So I am safe for now.

My question is did I overextend myself beyond help and hope? The only thing keeping me alive right now is the GLH trade routes (barely letting me break even) and the Rep-powered scientists keeping the tech pace inching along.

I am tempted to settle down and power out a culture win. On the other hand, Darius and Wang are laughable when it comes to war. I could try to draft Protective Muskets and Rifles with Lib Cannons. Hmmm... choices. Choices.

Edit : Save attached now.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

@dalamb

Spoiler cities :

It seems like light green is a lousy location, but it's galling to lose out on the cows. What about blue? It will get a lot of commerce from those furs but has no production, and only +3F from the crabs if I build a lighthouse. Should I wait for Universal Suffrage? It needs a monument and a lighthouse at a minimum.

On blue: given that the location is food poor, you aren't likely to be working all of the furs. So it won't cost you anything to settle on one - consider the implications of moving that dot one tile east.

Keep in mind that you don't necessarily need a monument; you don't need to pop the borders, what you need is to be able to work the crabs. A border pop from the cows achieves that. Or failing that, a missionary, or hire an artist for two turns.

Also note that you'll probably want to build the work boat somewhere else.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Finally got around to finishing this tonight (actually I started again and played it a bit differently).

Played at Prince level and got a Cultural win in 1804, I'm sure with slightly better play I could have finished in the 1700s but I'm not having another go!

Spoiler :

Spoiler Victory Screen :

Built 7 cities and had two flip to me.

Founded Taoism and Islam and had Confucianism spread to me. Both Darius and Wang were Confusciasts so it was one happy love fest - in fact we ended up with a 3 way Defensive Pact.

Didn't build that many Wonders:- some early key ones (Pyramids / GL), the Apostolic Place (for the hammers) and all the Cultural ones up to the Hermitage (switched research off after Liberalism).

Spoiler Wonders :

Didn't fight a single war, although there were some annoying Privateers near the end.

Spoiler Summary Statistics :

Spoiler City Locations :