Huh, that's really weird.
Mansa isn't at war with anybody, and the capital is on another landmass.
All 5 cities are in anarchy too.
Don't see any barbs anywhere.
The game doesn't have vassals disabled to save on colony expenses I hope?
Non-Incan Deity BC Space
- Thread starter Anysense
- Start date
Huh, that's really weird.
Mansa isn't at war with anybody, and the capital is on another landmass.
All 5 cities are in anarchy too.
Don't see any barbs anywhere.
The game doesn't have vassals disabled to save on colony expenses I hope?
@Kaitzilla
It is the same test game. Here is the save.
It is the same test game. Here is the save.
Looks like it is some crazy world builder shennigans.
Go the Mansa's capital, remove the palace with world-builder, and then re-apply the palace.
The whole city will gain the Star shape denoting it as a proper capital city once again and Mansa will make a colony with 3 cities in Anarchy.
The palace is there but there is no star indeed
This is very odd, because palace was moved naturally - through conquest. I captured Gao and Awdaghost on the same turn. May be, moving palace twice on the same turn caused this bug? No, I tried it with Willem and Darius, it did not work.
Edit: His last capital was Caesaraugusta! The bug happened when I captured it. So, it happens when the palace is moved to another landmass?
Edit2: Failed to reproduce it with someone else.
This is very odd, because palace was moved naturally - through conquest. I captured Gao and Awdaghost on the same turn. May be, moving palace twice on the same turn caused this bug? No, I tried it with Willem and Darius, it did not work.
Edit: His last capital was Caesaraugusta! The bug happened when I captured it. So, it happens when the palace is moved to another landmass?
Edit2: Failed to reproduce it with someone else.
Last edited:
Speaking about palace, since Rome is almost useless as a capital, why don't I move palace to Lisbon, my future IW city? That would make IW easy. I might even leave it there. Executives with just forge (and IW+palace) will be 73 base hammers - easy and no need for whipping. I don't know about space ship parts, though. I had no plans regarding capital. All parts are easy enough without bureau bonus, except Stasis, which is usually built with Ironworks.
floydmcw
Prince
Not even close. I tried several games on Settler/Epic and while the AIs don't do much they do start with a warrior or scout. I would average 4-6 huts before they were all gone.
May be you should not settle immediately but go hut-hunting with your settler? Even one worker or settler more than pays for delay and you don't really need good starting location because you'll spend some time wandering around, anyway.
BTW, I've been playing a lot and did not feel like writing. Tomorrow is going to be rather hot and I probably won't feel like playing.
floydmcw
Prince
That really doesn't feel worth it. There just aren't that many huts available. I tried another game and got a worker right away -- if you can work wet corn immediately that's much better than wandering with a settler.
I built a second scout (figured scouts are reasonable MPs on Settler) ... and found a total of 3 huts!
happysheep
Chieftain
U should try playing without civs that start with hunting, if u arent already doing so
Continuing turn 220. After switching several cities to build research btp is over 1200. If Darius does not give Feudalism at 3000/3822 I will add another 100
. He should really, with 4 cities captured and some fights won I will have about 60 war success.
DoW on Bismarck. His army is just a few HA and charriots not counting archers. Although 2-move units are very weak, they can cause trouble due to my defences stretching thin.
T221
Bismarck is just as bad as I thought he would be.
Spreading Hindu to Mediolanum. Its a bummer to use such cities for GP generation, it can barely grow in time to produce a 1500
GS. If only I could have Washington sooner, but it is dead end and on hill - not a very good early target.
I take Washington and get CoL in peace trade. Adopt Free Religion and bpt jumps to 1339.
I give Darius 4 cities and declare war. Take back the three cities on the island and give them to Victoria. These are going to spend a lot of time in revolt as I keep gifting and recapturing them. It is some kind of city juggling
T222
Welcome, Monty! Everyone is welcome here, except Sitting Bull and his cur soldiers.
Bismarck made it easy for me, placing his stack between between mine and Oporto. Berlin is protected by two archer - cheesy.
Feudalism is at 3126/3822. War success is 40:0 after taking gifts back, not unexpectantly Darius refuses to hand over Feudalism. Destroy a catapult - still not enough. Then sacrifice a cat and take out a swordman and axeman - Darius will not talk Seriously? He thinks that he is having a lot of success in this war? May be, next turn. Shut research down for 1 turn.
I give another city to Vicky and one to Monty; I have to relocate him somewhere, just to take him out of the way. I'd like to cap him but I'm not ready to finish off Victoria.
T223. Darius still will not talk
T224. Machinery.
Peace with Victoria. Give back the three cities. Darius still will not talk
T225. Feudalism.
Welcome, Alex! Victoria does like bad boys
It is clear now that I can't cteal Mansa's gold
His reserves swelled roughly two times over just a few turns. I have Jewish holy city, if only I thought of it before. Its too late now - I will need Hindu for Pacifism in less than 5 turns. I'm not even sure that it would work while in Free Religion. I will have to do it later in a specially prepared city; there are a few nice vacant spots near Rome.
I take Gordium and finally Darius is ready to talk. He would even capitulate but I don't need it - all the starting AI's must be destroyed.
. He should really, with 4 cities captured and some fights won I will have about 60 war success.DoW on Bismarck. His army is just a few HA and charriots not counting archers. Although 2-move units are very weak, they can cause trouble due to my defences stretching thin.
T221
Bismarck is just as bad as I thought he would be.
Spoiler :
Spreading Hindu to Mediolanum. Its a bummer to use such cities for GP generation, it can barely grow in time to produce a 1500
GS. If only I could have Washington sooner, but it is dead end and on hill - not a very good early target.I take Washington and get CoL in peace trade. Adopt Free Religion and bpt jumps to 1339.
Spoiler :
I give Darius 4 cities and declare war. Take back the three cities on the island and give them to Victoria. These are going to spend a lot of time in revolt as I keep gifting and recapturing them. It is some kind of city juggling
T222
Welcome, Monty! Everyone is welcome here, except Sitting Bull and his cur soldiers.
Bismarck made it easy for me, placing his stack between between mine and Oporto. Berlin is protected by two archer - cheesy.
Spoiler :
Feudalism is at 3126/3822. War success is 40:0 after taking gifts back, not unexpectantly Darius refuses to hand over Feudalism. Destroy a catapult - still not enough. Then sacrifice a cat and take out a swordman and axeman - Darius will not talk
Seriously? He thinks that he is having a lot of success in this war? May be, next turn. Shut research down for 1 turn.I give another city to Vicky and one to Monty; I have to relocate him somewhere, just to take him out of the way. I'd like to cap him but I'm not ready to finish off Victoria.
T223. Darius still will not talk
T224. Machinery.
Peace with Victoria. Give back the three cities. Darius still will not talk
T225. Feudalism.
Welcome, Alex! Victoria does like bad boys
It is clear now that I can't cteal Mansa's gold
His reserves swelled roughly two times over just a few turns. I have Jewish holy city, if only I thought of it before. Its too late now - I will need Hindu for Pacifism in less than 5 turns. I'm not even sure that it would work while in Free Religion. I will have to do it later in a specially prepared city; there are a few nice vacant spots near Rome.I take Gordium and finally Darius is ready to talk. He would even capitulate but I don't need it - all the starting AI's must be destroyed.
Currently making 1587 at -948
. That is real output of my empire is 639/. Mercantilism at 64 cities would add 64*6=384. I'd like to squeez Banking in 3 turns, but it is just possible if I max out bpt halting growth and forego final whips just before switching to Rep/Caste/Merc/Paci. I don't need military much, yet I do need more workers (51 workers is a joke) and settlers. New cities will not have time to grow much, their main purpose is collecting resources and being temporary homes for new civs.
I wonder, how much of a drain these cities would have been to my economy if I kept them. Typicall foodless island city has four 2
traderoutes, 2
2 centre (during GA) and can hire 2 scientists. So its 2*4+2+2+6*2=24. Not bad, bad it also has some 10-15 maintenance. Lets get some data.
I settled 20 cities in a test game, five at a time.
Number of cities maintenance is always 8 per city, variation is caused by distance maintenance. Settling close to the capital or Forbidden Palace is fine. In fact, a forever-size-one city may be considered and investment if it brings 12 profit. The alternative for 2 pop that make a settler is to work 2 tiles. That could be: coast 2*4, farm+mine 4+4, two cottages for 8-10. Then there are rare possibilities such as double riverside wine 210.
Conclusion: as long as I'm settling close enough to keep distance maintenance low its OK to whip away even good tiles. Distant cities ought to be left for AI, though, and that should be mostly ones claiming metals. Making failgold is OK too but not particularly profitable. A lot depends on traits. Being Industrious and non-Imperialistic would shift the balance in favor of more Wonderbread and much less expansion. No wonder WastinTime had only 61 cities by the time he had corporations.
at -948. That is real output of my empire is 639/. Mercantilism at 64 cities would add 64*6=384. I'd like to squeez Banking in 3 turns, but it is just possible if I max out bpt halting growth and forego final whips just before switching to Rep/Caste/Merc/Paci. I don't need military much, yet I do need more workers (51 workers is a joke) and settlers. New cities will not have time to grow much, their main purpose is collecting resources and being temporary homes for new civs.Spoiler :
I wonder, how much of a drain these cities would have been to my economy if I kept them. Typicall foodless island city has four 2
traderoutes, 22 centre (during GA) and can hire 2 scientists. So its 2*4+2+2+6*2=24. Not bad, bad it also has some 10-15 maintenance. Lets get some data.I settled 20 cities in a test game, five at a time.
Number of cities maintenance is always 8
per city, variation is caused by distance maintenance. Settling close to the capital or Forbidden Palace is fine. In fact, a forever-size-one city may be considered and investment if it brings 12 profit. The alternative for 2 pop that make a settler is to work 2 tiles. That could be: coast 2*4, farm+mine 4+4, two cottages for 8-10. Then there are rare possibilities such as double riverside wine 210.Conclusion: as long as I'm settling close enough to keep distance maintenance low its OK to whip away even good tiles. Distant cities ought to be left for AI, though, and that should be mostly ones claiming metals. Making failgold is OK too but not particularly profitable. A lot depends on traits. Being Industrious and non-Imperialistic would shift the balance in favor of more Wonderbread and much less expansion. No wonder WastinTime had only 61 cities by the time he had corporations.
What about Organized courthouses? They are supposed to be good, aren't they? Most cities have maintenance whithin the range of 10-14, so a courthouse would save 5-7 per turn, or 3 per 1 of population whipped away; some 300 over 50 turns. That is not a great investment to say the least, even if you take into account 2
per turn, which can be used to steal gold from AI. Actually, there are two main reasons to build courthouses: Forbidden Palace and corporations. Forbidden Palace can save about 200 per turn, requires 6 chourthouses. Mining alone adds so much to city maintenance that a CH pays in a few turns. Cities that receive Mining before strike will definitely need couthouses. But they also need forges and population to whip executives. This is a lot to ask from a city. Of course, there are forests, but they are also needed for failgold and spaceship. So much conflict
During this whipping session prior to Banking I will focus on getting settlers and workers. It would be great to have Forbidden Palace sooner than later, but I'm not prepared to chop it faster than in ~10 turns, anyway. Hence, the courthouses can wait until slavery window after Nationalism. I have never built Forbidden Palace before, did not know it was that good. But then I mostly played flat Terra, where it probably was not very good.
T227. Gulds.
T229. Banking.
From now on when I refer to bpt it means bpt+gpt, unless explicitly stated differently. So, after switching to Representation, Vassalage, Caste, Mercantilism and Pacifism bpt is up from 392 to 687. After some adjustments it becomes 771 per turn. Nice change from being in negative number less than 20 turns ago. Population had risen from 161 on t212 to 240 on t228. Nearly 1.5 times!
There was a lot whipping. Over 227-229 turn I whipped 8 settlers, 7 workers, 4 catapults, 2 knights, a galley, a workboat, 3 couthouses, a granary and a forge. More than 50 population in total.
, so a courthouse would save 5-7 per turn, or 3 per 1 of population whipped away; some 300 over 50 turns. That is not a great investment to say the least, even if you take into account 2 per turn, which can be used to steal gold from AI. Actually, there are two main reasons to build courthouses: Forbidden Palace and corporations. Forbidden Palace can save about 200 per turn, requires 6 chourthouses. Mining alone adds so much to city maintenance that a CH pays in a few turns. Cities that receive Mining before strike will definitely need couthouses. But they also need forges and population to whip executives. This is a lot to ask from a city. Of course, there are forests, but they are also needed for failgold and spaceship. So much conflictDuring this whipping session prior to Banking I will focus on getting settlers and workers. It would be great to have Forbidden Palace sooner than later, but I'm not prepared to chop it faster than in ~10 turns, anyway. Hence, the courthouses can wait until slavery window after Nationalism. I have never built Forbidden Palace before, did not know it was that good. But then I mostly played flat Terra, where it probably was not very good.
T227. Gulds.
T229. Banking.
From now on when I refer to bpt it means bpt+gpt, unless explicitly stated differently. So, after switching to Representation, Vassalage, Caste, Mercantilism and Pacifism bpt is up from 392 to 687. After some adjustments it becomes 771
per turn. Nice change from being in negative number less than 20 turns ago. Population had risen from 161 on t212 to 240 on t228. Nearly 1.5 times! There was a lot whipping. Over 227-229 turn I whipped 8 settlers, 7 workers, 4 catapults, 2 knights, a galley, a workboat, 3 couthouses, a granary and a forge. More than 50 population in total.
T230
Domination limit is becoming a problem. I'm currently at 44.99%, that is only 6% left. This is only 115 tiles! I will gain 60-70 tiles over next 10 turns, so it is a problem. Still need 3 more new civs to raise the limit by 1%. Every civ after that will add 2%.
Bismarck has only one city left, and it is conveniently close! I could do with a vassal or two for happiness and for that I need an AI who can be finished off quickly. I haven't got a clue where and Victoria's last cities are, but Bismarck will do. All I need is to make him create a vassal, then take his last city; a galley is already on the way.
Berlin will make an excellent Heroic Epic city. I don't need more military, may be a few catapults. Most of the time Berlin will spend building galleys and workboats. HE reduces their cost to 50 and 30 respectively. Workboats are in particular very good for producing overflow gold to fund corporations spread while in strike. This and the need for a large number of galleys and workboats to collect Sushi resources are the only reasons to build HE. Berlin is the only option. I thought it would be London, but then it got stupid looters event.
I can't attack Frederick yet, Hamburg (NE city) has serious problems with happiness due to large population and German culture. In four turns whipping will fade and I will make peace with Vicky. Then I think it will be OK to DoW Fred.
Victoria with her archers is a pushover. Nice city, though, and two workers.
T232
Making 980, thats more than 200 increase in 3 turns! Number of cities is almost as volatile as Bitcoin, 69 now + 4 settlers and only 61 workers
Frederick created a colony - Maya. I found his last city when it expanded its borders - it is north-east of Hamburg! Luckily, I have a galley close by, it was transporting units that captured Washington.
T234 Engineering
There is a reason why Engineering first was absolutely a must. Next 2 GP are to start next Golden Age on t239. They will be born on 235 and 238 turns in two cities on the opposite sides of the continent. They can't meet in time without Engineering and using them separately runs risk of using Mining GE instead. And I'm sick of 2
roads, anyway.
Making 1048. Land area is 46.61%. Only 4.39% left
Domination limit is becoming a problem. I'm currently at 44.99%, that is only 6% left. This is only 115 tiles! I will gain 60-70 tiles over next 10 turns, so it is a problem. Still need 3 more new civs to raise the limit by 1%. Every civ after that will add 2%.
Bismarck has only one city left, and it is conveniently close! I could do with a vassal or two for happiness and for that I need an AI who can be finished off quickly. I haven't got a clue where and Victoria's last cities are, but Bismarck will do. All I need is to make him create a vassal, then take his last city; a galley is already on the way.
Berlin will make an excellent Heroic Epic city. I don't need more military, may be a few catapults. Most of the time Berlin will spend building galleys and workboats. HE reduces their cost to 50
and 30 respectively. Workboats are in particular very good for producing overflow gold to fund corporations spread while in strike. This and the need for a large number of galleys and workboats to collect Sushi resources are the only reasons to build HE. Berlin is the only option. I thought it would be London, but then it got stupid looters event.I can't attack Frederick yet, Hamburg (NE city) has serious problems with happiness due to large population and German culture. In four turns whipping
will fade and I will make peace with Vicky. Then I think it will be OK to DoW Fred.Victoria with her archers is a pushover. Nice city, though, and two workers.
Spoiler :
T232
Making 980
, thats more than 200 increase in 3 turns! Number of cities is almost as volatile as Bitcoin, 69 now + 4 settlers and only 61 workersFrederick created a colony - Maya. I found his last city when it expanded its borders - it is north-east of Hamburg! Luckily, I have a galley close by, it was transporting units that captured Washington.
Spoiler :
T234 Engineering
There is a reason why Engineering first was absolutely a must. Next 2 GP are to start next Golden Age on t239. They will be born on 235 and 238 turns in two cities on the opposite sides of the continent. They can't meet in time without Engineering and using them separately runs risk of using Mining GE instead. And I'm sick of 2
roads, anyway.Making 1048
. Land area is 46.61%. Only 4.39% leftT235
Zhang Qian (Great Merchant) has been born in New York.
I tried to lure some of Frederick's units out by giving him Brundisium - it did not work. It does not really matter, as I have more than sufficient force to crush him. So, without further ado, lets get on with another war. Happiness in Hamburg is 18/18
T237 Philosophy
Why not CS first? Because I forgot that Nationalism requires it!
Getting ready to steal Mansa's gold
T239
Welcome, Boudica! Goodbye, Frederick; Stuttgart will become new home for the Celt girl. Sorry about the ice and cold, Boudica, but I need you to keep this iron for me.
Beaker output is suddenly down to 750. Oh yeah, time to start another Golden Age, that brings bpt to 1189. Clearly, GA is still a thing not only for switching civics and making Greate People.
Final gifts are made and I declare war on Bismarck and take his last city. A really good one, with 6 pop, granary and double food. Boudica is free... To become my slave
T240 Civil Service
Now I can upgrade my GG Praetorians to Macemen. They will be very useful angainst Willem, who has some 20 metal units.
After loosing 4 cities and 6 warriors (64 war success) Boudica still does not want to talk.
Land area 48.12% out of 51%
T241
Boudica capitulated. Gandhi joined the game. Land area is 48.12/52%
Zhang Qian (Great Merchant) has been born in New York.
I tried to lure some of Frederick's units out by giving him Brundisium - it did not work. It does not really matter, as I have more than sufficient force to crush him. So, without further ado, lets get on with another war. Happiness in Hamburg is 18/18
Spoiler :
T237 Philosophy
Why not CS first? Because I forgot that Nationalism requires it!
Getting ready to steal Mansa's gold
T239
Welcome, Boudica! Goodbye, Frederick; Stuttgart will become new home for the Celt girl. Sorry about the ice and cold, Boudica, but I need you to keep this iron for me.
Spoiler :
Beaker output is suddenly down to 750. Oh yeah, time to start another Golden Age, that brings bpt to 1189. Clearly, GA is still a thing not only for switching civics and making Greate People.
Final gifts are made and I declare war on Bismarck and take his last city. A really good one, with 6 pop, granary and double food. Boudica is free... To become my slave
T240 Civil Service
Now I can upgrade my GG Praetorians to Macemen. They will be very useful angainst Willem, who has some 20 metal units.
After loosing 4 cities and 6 warriors (64 war success) Boudica still does not want to talk.
Land area 48.12% out of 51%
T241
Boudica capitulated. Gandhi joined the game. Land area is 48.12/52%
Another Great General approaches. I used the last one to make two 5-move galleys. GG gives 20 experience points, allowing 3 level ups for two units with 0 experience (Flanking I, Navigation I and Navigation II). But if I had four galleys each having 5 exp already then I could have made four 5-move galleys with one GG! The means to get 5 exp galleys is barracks plus Vassalage or settled GG. The only city with a GG is York, which is busy preparing Great Merchant for Sushi and can't produce much. Theocracy is out of question, so I have to use Vassalage. Rome is in such a state that Bureaucracy is only useful for whipping with 50% bonus. Even when Rome works all its gems Vassalage is still on par with Bureau.
Nationalism is 4 turns away (assuming I can steal ~1000 from Mansa) and this is when I switch to Slavery and Organized Religion. Berlin will whip barracks and finish HE with 3 chops, whip but not finish a galley. As I switch back to Caste and Pacifism, I will also replace Bureaucracy with Vassalage. Then Berlin will build four 5-exp galleys in quick succession: first whipped, second built with oveflow, two built with a chop. Rome will need regrowing after whipping forge and courthouse and will not work gems for quite a while. It makes Vassalage better for economy than Bureau, so I can keep it and build some 4-move galleys (requires only 5 exp).
Nationalism is 4 turns away (assuming I can steal ~1000
from Mansa) and this is when I switch to Slavery and Organized Religion. Berlin will whip barracks and finish HE with 3 chops, whip but not finish a galley. As I switch back to Caste and Pacifism, I will also replace Bureaucracy with Vassalage. Then Berlin will build four 5-exp galleys in quick succession: first whipped, second built with oveflow, two built with a chop. Rome will need regrowing after whipping forge and courthouse and will not work gems for quite a while. It makes Vassalage better for economy than Bureau, so I can keep it and build some 4-move galleys (requires only 5 exp).Spoiler :
NothingBesideRemains
Warlord
- Joined
- May 14, 2021
- Messages
- 113
Whoa, careful with this - barracks gives 3 xp to land units only. You would need theocracy + settled gg + vassalage to get 6 xp galleys, which could get you 5 galleys with +2 movement after you attach an extra gg to the group.
There are 1916 land tiles on the map. Mainland is about 1150 or 60%. I want to be at least 1% below domination limit, that leaves 1916*0.15=287 tiles for island cities. At 5 per city I can have 287/5=57 cities on islands. I think 5 is very generous, some 10 of those will belong to my vassals. There are currently 76 cities on the continent and 21 spot for new cities - 97 in total. I think keeping the whole mainland is affordable, it allows 97 continental cities and about 50 on islands + 10 single city vassals. This ought to be enough to collect resources and achieve decent bpt in the final stage.
I counted 28 Mining resources on the continent and 6 on nearby islands, 34 in total. I want Mining to be at 40 when it is founded and for that I need 53 resources or 19 more than I found so far. There will be 7-10 coal on the continent, leaving about 10 resources which I need to find somewhere on islands. It also means that I will need at least 10 settlers just for that, unless AI makes this job easier for me. I know that Suleiman has a city settled on an island iron.
I counted 28 Mining resources on the continent and 6 on nearby islands, 34 in total. I want Mining to be at 40
when it is founded and for that I need 53 resources or 19 more than I found so far. There will be 7-10 coal on the continent, leaving about 10 resources which I need to find somewhere on islands. It also means that I will need at least 10 settlers just for that, unless AI makes this job easier for me. I know that Suleiman has a city settled on an island iron.
petersc
Chieftain
There is a reason why Engineering first was absolutely a must. Next 2 GP are to start next Golden Age on t239. They will be born on 235 and 238 turns in two cities on the opposite sides of the continent. They can't meet in time without Engineering and using them separately runs risk of using Mining GE instead. And I'm sick of 2
So if you have three GP, you can control which two are used for the GA if they are on the same tile, otherwise it is random?
If you select one GP and click start GA then this GP will be used along with someone else. Whether it is random or there is some algorithm behind it I don't know. If it is important to use a group of specific GP for a Golden Age then separating them and selecting together as a group is a foolproof way to use the GP who you actually want to use.
