NOOB Questions for Monarch Help

[lazarus319l]

OK few Questions I need answered before I begin my next game (moving up to Monarch). I'm playing Conquest BTW.

1.) How does one build science farms without it simply going hungry after making 2-3 scientiests?

2.) People discuss spacing, CXXC, CXXXC, etc. are the C's simply cities or zones of control by that city? Also, I've been going with CXXXC where the X's are tiles and C's are just the cities themselves, is this poor choice?

3.) I've been winning my games by Dominance? Is this a sign that I've been outplaying the computer or simply not good enough to win by other methods such as Culture, space ship, etc?

Thanks in advance for answering my lame questions

 

[Snarkhunter]

OK few Questions I need answered before I begin my next game (moving up to Monarch). I'm playing Conquest BTW.

1.) How does one build science farms without it simply going hungry after making 2-3 scientiests?

2.) People discuss spacing, CXXC, CXXXC, etc. are the C's simply cities or zones of control by that city? Also, I've been going with CXXXC where the X's are tiles and C's are just the cities themselves, is this poor choice?

3.) I've been winning my games by Dominance? Is this a sign that I've been outplaying the computer or simply not good enough to win by other methods such as Culture, space ship, etc?

Thanks in advance for answering my lame questions

1) You need surplus food to support the specialists. Towns that don't have any won't make any. However, once out of Despotism, this shouldn't be a problem. (And once you get rails, you'll be embarassed by the amount of food piling up!)

2) C = city tile, X = non-city tile. CXC would be the densest packing, CXXXXC the easiest way to ensure that no two cities share any working tiles. Many people favor CXXC because (among other things) with roads, you can move units from city to city in 1 turn. However, if you want to work 12 tiles in your core, you need to open that up a little. Merits of spacing choices are hotly debated here, but people win with almost anything you can think of.

3) I consider domination the quickest & easiest route to victory. I would find a 20k culture win hard to do & I've never bothered with diplo, but the others seem more a matter of style than difficulty. If you want to avoid domination, well, just do other things Helps to pick a VC at the start, then adhere to it. A utility such as CAII can tell you pretty closely when you are bumping into the domination limit, so you can back off, raze some cities, etc.

kk

 

[The Professor]

I'm sure other people will have comments to add to this, but here's my two cents:

1.) How does one build science farms without it simply going hungry after making 2-3 scientiests?

In areas with lots of grassland, floodplains, or bonus food, you can have three or four scientists with two or three workers on the fields, maybe more if the town is on a river. In tundra, you might as well make the first citizen a scientist and pack the cities in as close as possible.

2.) People discuss spacing, CXXC, CXXXC, etc. are the C's simply cities or zones of control by that city? Also, I've been going with CXXXC where the X's are tiles and C's are just the cities themselves, is this poor choice?

The C's represent cities; the X's are the tiles between cities. Most people on this site will recommend mostly CXXC, this allows for easy movement of units from one city to the next once you have roads. However, most people will also adjust this according to the terrain--it may well be worth it to put a city or two at CXXXC in order to put the cities on a river, and as I mentioned above, in tundra, for instance, there is no sense in building farther than CXC, since those cities won't grow much even if you don't make tax collectors or scientists.

I've been winning my games by Dominance? Is this a sign that I've been outplaying the computer or simply not good enough to win by other methods such as Culture, space ship, etc?

Victory condition is pretty much a matter of personal preference. I like varying the victory condition in order to keep things fresh, and I think some skills are emphasized more in some victory conditions than in others. IOW, you may learn more about trading if you win by space, which could make you a better trader for you next military victory game, but I don't think having a favorite victory condition says anything about your general ability.

 

[lazarus319l]

1) You need surplus food to support the specialists. Towns that don't have any won't make any. However, once out of Despotism, this shouldn't be a problem. (And once you get rails, you'll be embarassed by the amount of food piling up!)

2) C = city tile, X = non-city tile. CXC would be the densest packing, CXXXXC the easiest way to ensure that no two cities share any working tiles. Many people favor CXXC because (among other things) with roads, you can move units from city to city in 1 turn. However, if you want to work 12 tiles in your core, you need to open that up a little. Merits of spacing choices are hotly debated here, but people win with almost anything you can think of.

3) I consider domination the quickest & easiest route to victory. I would find a 20k culture win hard to do & I've never bothered with diplo, but the others seem more a matter of style than difficulty. If you want to avoid domination, well, just do other things Helps to pick a VC at the start, then adhere to it. A utility such as CAII can tell you pretty closely when you are bumping into the domination limit, so you can back off, raze some cities, etc.

kk

1.) I typically play Monarchy due to the constant waring, am I better to shift towards Republic to reduce the corruption or is there not a huge differnce on larger maps?

2.) I would think CXXC doesn't leave a lot of cities a chance to grow. Do you normally leave these cities at 6, considering there's no squares for them to expand to?
3.) I don't mind winning by dominance just seems like a lot of work and not sure if other people consider this a "lame way" to win, one which doesn't take as much skill as say culture victor? Does it give less points for a win?

4.) Ok last question - --- If I Raze a city, I know that upsets the AI that I razed, but does it put me in a bad light with other AI's?

 

[vmxa]

3) I don't know, it seems to me the easiest win is Space and then Diplo. They are more tiresome and Culture is easy, but very boring. Hey wait they are all easy.

Space - just play to the end and launch

Diplo play to you build the UN and bribe all and kill any trouble makers.

Culture build junky things like cath early

Domination, easier than conquest as it takes less time, just kill them

IOW it does not mater what type you choose as long as you are doing it with little trouble, it is time to move up.

2) You can use any spacing you want, but it makes little sense to go wider than CxxC.

You cannot use more than 12 tiles, until you have hospital, yeah there is a wonder for one town. You do not need hospitals anyway, but if you make a couple you can borrow tiles from the next city. No big deal.

1) Farms are mostly coming into their own after rails. Prior to that you cannot get many in most cities. You would need food bonus to free up more than a few pop.

4) Yes you are going to incur some bad feeling from the AI, but so what. Oh maybe you are going for UN.

 

[Mursi lives]

I've been winning my games by Dominance? Is this a sign that I've been outplaying the computer or simply not good enough to win by other methods such as Culture, space ship, etc?

Depends of the era you get the wins. If it is before tanks, I would say yes, you clearly outplay the AI and should try at harder level.
Anyway, if you never lose, it is time to move a level up.

I typically play Monarchy due to the constant waring, am I better to shift towards Republic to reduce the corruption or is there not a huge differnce on larger maps?

It is not only about corruption. Republic is like having a Colossus in each of your towns. The war weariness is very manageable as long as you dont lose too many units and you can support your troops by spamming new towns in the conquered territory.

 

[Snarkhunter]

1.) I typically play Monarchy due to the constant waring, am I better to shift towards Republic to reduce the corruption or is there not a huge differnce on larger maps?

2.) I would think CXXC doesn't leave a lot of cities a chance to grow. Do you normally leave these cities at 6, considering there's no squares for them to expand to?

1) Consensus seems to be monarchy is fine for always warring, Republic is best all-around gov--provided you learn how to manage wars & war weariness properly. You get arguments for other govs, but they seem to be special cases, overall; OTOH, it helps to try the other govs & see how it works. Things like demo or fascism require optional techs & late-game revolts, so they are not as popular. In my experience, I don't have any problems building what I want at monarch level using Republic & the game usually doesn't last long enough to make changing to some other gov worthwhile. YMMV.

2) CXXC leaves you with a pop of 9 per city*; if you want 12, you have to space a little more widely here and there, although terrain considerations often have that effect anyway. If you want a game with metros, you should build that way from the start, although there is some thought that you could simply abandon a few towns here and there to make room when the time comes.

*
XXXXXXXXX
XCXXCXXCX
XXXXXXXXX, etc.

kk

 

[vmxa]

How does CxxxC leave you with 9 pop? I have 12 in mine. You just have to be get some culture at some point. You will have a lib in your core so you get 21 tiles like anyone else.

Some of your tiles will be shared with other, but you cannot use 21 tiles anyway, well not till you 1) learn sanitation and 2) build a hospital. Not sure why you would spend time learning Sanitation, but help yourself.

 

[Mursi lives]

Strict CxxC gives a ratio city tiles/total tiles of 1/9. So Snarkhunter is wrong: it would be 8 pop by city . CxxxC is 1/16 (too wide!), but there is some "diagonal CxxC" which give the 1/13 ratio.
Instead of patterns like CxxC or CxxxC I think we really should use ratios to describe our city spacing.

 

[pedrobobo]

Strict CxxC gives a ratio city tiles/total tiles of 1/9. So Snarkhunter is wrong: it would be 8 pop by city . CxxxC is 1/16 (too wide!), but there is some "diagonal CxxC" which give the 1/13 ratio.
Instead of patterns like CxxC or CxxxC I think we really should use ratios to describe our city spacing.

Building in a CxxC would allow you to work 8 tiles per city (12 if you built on a diagonal), but the center city tile also produces food - which is how you get to 9 pop per city.

Of course, the quality of the surrounding tiles and level of irrigation are also significant factors for population limits. A city working 8 irrigated grassland can support a minimum of 13 people - enough to become metros. Shield production would be a little dissapointing though.

 

[pedrobobo]

Removing an accidental double post.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I don't use a strict CxxC, but I usually have no problem growing my cities to size 12, Generally, if you irrigate any high food tiles and then rail them, theres plenty of food to support 12 population.

 

[vmxa]

Like I said I use CxxC and a) it is not hard to understand whereas ratios would not make sense to most b) I routinely have 12 pop working in the core and outside of the core why would I want them working anyway?

 

[Mursi lives]

Right, a square of 9 CxxC cities get enough tiles for 12 working citizens per city, and you can even add a few size-12 cities around. I simply forgot that cores are not much bigger than that.

 

[Snarkhunter]

Right, a square of 9 CxxC cities get enough tiles for 12 working citizens per city, and you can even add a few size-12 cities around. I simply forgot that cores are not much bigger than that.

Yes, I wrote too hastily. Given surplus food, you can grow cities in a CXXC grid greater than 9 pop, & it should be possible to do that, at the very least, by the time you get railed. However, I don't see how you can work more than 8 tiles in each city unless the grid is rather small. (I'd consider the 3X3 square above as rather small.) The inner cities can certainly steal tiles from the outer ones, but if the grid is more than a couple of layers deep, eventually some cities get shortchanged. Probably moot, as by the time you get to a grid that deep, the outer cities are probably too corrupt to care about any more. I've been trying to recall recent games & it seems my cores run about 10-15 cities, with a semi-productive fringe 1-2 layers deep.

The upshot is that your core cities can work 12 tiles in a CXXC grid, but you can't maintain that spacing indefinitely & continue to have each city working 12 tiles--fortunately or un, it probably doesn't matter that they can't. the overall message is that you don't have to worry about CXXC spacing preventing your towns from growing past size 6, which was the OP question, IIRC. And as others have pointed out, terrain will likely trump spacing considerations here and there anyways.

kk

 

[Exwing17]

Sorry to tag along with this thread, but I have just completed my first monarch win using something similar to this...

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXCXXCXXCXXCXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XCXXCXXCXXCXXC

So just one off from CXXC diagonally, not that it matters. But I've never seen an early game like it, I was immediately ahead, with the ability to outgrow, out science and out produce everyone. At one point i had 14% of the land area, and 30% of the population. My nearest rivals were 12% & 12%! So yeah I love it...

Although my question is to do with my capital that was on the sea.

I know that the core cities around your capital should go like so:

C C C

C Cap C

C C C

That reduces corruption right? So if your city is by the sea, do you miss out on 3 relatively uncorrupt cities?

I hope that makes sense!

 

[Spoonwood]

I don't know, it seems to me the easiest win is Space and then Diplo.

That's really weird to me. You need three strategic resources to win a space race game. For a diplomatic game you don't need any. Also, in a space race game you can get nuked if it's at all competitive. In a diplomatic game you probably should have finished the U.N. before then. You can also gift gold and sign RoPs to help get more votes in a Diplomatic game.

1.) How does one build science farms without it simply going hungry after making 2-3 scientiests?

2.) People discuss spacing, CXXC, CXXXC, etc. are the C's simply cities or zones of control by that city? Also, I've been going with CXXXC where the X's are tiles and C's are just the cities themselves, is this poor choice?

3.) I've been winning my games by Dominance? Is this a sign that I've been outplaying the computer or simply not good enough to win by other methods such as Culture, space ship, etc?

Forget 1). Forget all the Xs in "CXC", "CXXC", and so on. Forget 3) also. Your new city spacing pattern is C... no Xs, no second C. Win by 20k culture, diplomatic, spaceship, or even conquest. Alright, play the game anyway you want, but there's a suggestion.

 

[vmxa]

I think you answered it with the OCC. If you can win culture, UN or Space with one city, really how hard is it? Try winning by conquest with one city any level above emperor.

Never been nuked at any level other than Sid or a game I picked up from some poster that already had nukes. Three resource, my what a challenge. About on par with getting a a vote or three for the UN. I only said the were the easiest, not the the fastest.

I say that because you just need to get the techs and the resources. This can be done with force or guile, with force being the easiest. UN at higher levels is harder as the AI will tend to be annoyed, before you even meet them and get furious in a snap. You either have to kiss butt for the whole game or play hob getting them to like you. Best to get them to war with the other guy before the vote. Not impossible, but more work than Space.

RoP with several nations that have hundreds of infantry and god knows what else, is not in my repertory. I really dislike trading and dealings with the Ai as it is so easy for the human to do. It is like the dealing with the natives in the 1600. Here take these beads. That is why AW appeals to me as you cannot make any deals, so you lose that handicap.

As to spacing, back in the C3 days I used a "pattern 19" This was very strong. Looks like this:

 

[Spoonwood]

RoP with several nations that have hundreds of infantry and god knows what else, is not in my repertory.

Well if you do it one turn before the U. N. finishes, and also gift them some gold, you'll have a massive attitude jump in your favor. Hence, I think diplomatic easier then space. That doesn't mean I consider winning by space hard, just that's it a bit harder than diplomatic.

I agree that trading with the AI is like "here take these beads, we'll take Kansas for it" or whatever.