[GS] Norway in GS

[Victoria]

A buff will probably mean they add a Huscarl which will be a non upgradeable sword replacement with +3 combat and be 1.5x the normal sword cost and remove the Stave church.

I have no idea who validates a 'buff' but they do not have a good history with buffing.

 

[pgm123]

@acluewithout I have high hopes for the pillage changes, and if it ends up being possible to run an aggressive science/culture/religion game through pillaging without conquering (or at least not conquering very much) then I'll be happy. Even more so if the grievance system isn't too harsh on that kind of non-conquest pillaging. My dream would be to run a one- or two-city Norway game and coastal-raid my way to a non-domination victory as a semi-rogue pirate state.

Even forgetting everything I've said about the Phoenicians and Ottomans, I still think the Maori come pretty close to this criteria. They can cross the ocean faster, they're better at embarking, they're as good or better at launching coastal assaults, they have quicker access to their fishing boat yield boost (even if it is a worse yield), their melee UU comes earlier in the tech tree and is as good or better than the Berserker (depending on attack/defence). On top of that, their UB comes along earlier, grants more faith from woods as well as +2 culture -- and that's for all woods, not just woods adjacent to the UB -- and it also applies to all other passable features (which are also buffed by Mana). What does Norway have left? +50% production towards Ironclads?

Maybe the pillage changes will make enough of a difference to counteract some of this (I sincerely hope so), and maybe the no-chopping rule will really hurt the Maori (I'm not a chopper and probably won't notice it at all when I play them). But I really do feel this is a much bigger and more imbalanced overlap than, say, Trajan having a better road-based ability than Cyrus.

I think of Norway as a pillaging coastal pillaging civ fist. It's not perfect and I'll admit it didn't live up to my initial expectations when Civ VI first launched (I thought about having perpetual war with Norway and just pillage things). But if pillaging is your game, Norway is still the best at it. Ottoman's are better late, but it's late.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

What does Norway have left?

A proper starting location? Sickles? Literacy?

The Maori's whole deal is that their abilities are stronger than normal because they're balanced by unique limitations. Of course other civs will look underpowered in comparison if you ignore those limitations and only look at the upside of what they can do.

But yes, if you ignore all the Maori's weaknesses, then the only things Norway can do that they can't is pillage earlier and build boats faster. Still, that's two things, not zero.

 

[Alexadamz]

I think a buff to Norway should be to allow them to Coastal Raid up to three tiles inland if those tiles are River tiles.

For me the best buff would be something in these lines. The Longship should have this ability, able to use floodplains as early canals, as the Vikings Longships did IRL. Usually the farther you go up river, the more hills and such you might find, and then the Longship would be blocked to keep going. Only 3 tiles I think it could be too few to do much. With floodplains you get more versatility and more historical and physical accurate raids on rivers. But maybe your idea is easier to code.

 

[CoconutTank]

I don't know if an existing civ already does this, but it'd be cool if Norway's embarked melee units not only kept their full strength, but could also attack, coastal raid and didn't lose strength for amphibious attacks. Basically they'd have an army that could transition seamlessly between land and sea, which is something that I haven't seen yet, and imo would be fitting with the way the Vikings were depicted in their mastery of sea navigation and coastal raiding.

I also had a grievance with Viking Longboats that I posted in the singleton suggestions thread; imo they'd be better as naval raiders instead of naval melee.

 

[DWilson]

I think I recall one balance discussion that pointed out that the Berserkers could be improved by removing their malus on defense, and it still wouldn't make them overpowered.

 

[ferretbacon]

I think a buff to Norway should be to allow them to Coastal Raid up to three tiles inland if those tiles are River tiles.

YES. I suggested this buff over on Reddit sometime in the last couple of months. Those Viking longships were notorious for going up river.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Honestly what would make them better is moving the Viking Longship to Shipbuilding in the Classical Era and make it a stand alone naval melee ship.
Having both Galleys and Viking Longships as coastal raiders would help them greatly and makes more sense historically unlocking at that time. The river idea is good too.

 

[ezzlar]

Bad balancing survives in this game because the two factors mostly affecting winning are not civ specific: bad war AI and chopping.

So Norway can be funny anyway!

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Maori is sure to be much worse than Norway.

 

[Lord Lakely]

The Stave Church should indeed be buffed, not just because it's bad, but because it's the easiest way to buff Norway. Allow cities with a Stave church to purchase something for faith, like Civilian unit perhaps?

Additional prod from lumber mills or adjacency from woods would also incentivize Norway players to keep those woods around.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Hmm...

What about getting an inspiration when discovering a natural wonder or continent? Or is that too good?

 

[Lord Lakely]

Just continents is fine. That would mean eight free inspirations per game, which isn't too strong, but they have other boosts as well.

 

[Victoria]

Basically they'd have an army that could transition seamlessly between land and sea, which is something that I haven't seen yet,

A Redcoat army does

Those Viking longships were notorious for going up river.

the i game issue is rivers are on hex sides, no idea how sensibly this could be implemented.

 

[Cedbird77]

I take the minor view on this one that has been so eloquently stated.

But with a different twist. Civ comes down to this for all Civs. Planning Managing Executing and Map situations.

Each Civ from Rome to the Norway face these fundamentals. I hear the major view on Norway.

But it does not bother me

 

[Victoria]

I guess if it comes down to what really bothers me, it’s the starting positions coastal civs get, often rubbishy in comparison. Ou sort of get an anti snowball, poor civ (which is a challenge), poor starting place and more requirement on granaries, walls and now with GS the chop nerf for 100% naval... a bad design but it helped. The sea defence requirement is late so IDC so much.

 

[Sotof]

I'd love to see a more peaceful bonus of some kind. I think they could easily drop Harald's coastal raiding for caravels, ironclads and destroyers, and replace it with a more economic/cultural/religious bonus. I don't really see Norway as a scientific or diplomatic victory-focused civ, but culture and religion would both be good alternatives to domination. The Stave Church looks really cool, but I always thought a runestone (either as a Shrine or a UI) would be more fitting, given the civ's overall pagan/Viking aesthetic (Catholic leader notwithstanding).

Something colonial would also be interesting, maybe tied into their ability to cross the ocean early. Maybe Viking Longships could settle coastal cities on foreign continents (like Conquistadors in Civ V)?

Runestone should probably be replacement for the monument if it is to exist, which could give yields depending on other districts in the city. A shrine should be replaced with a sacred space, a frið-garðr, probably with a focus on faith/culture from high appeal tiles. My opinion anyhow.

 

[pgm123]

A Redcoat army does
the i game issue is rivers are on hex sides, no idea how sensibly this could be implemented.

It's been suggested that the coastal raid will be able to pillage up to three tiles inland (instead of one) if those tiles are touching a river that the longship is adjacent to.

 

[Softly]

They are removing chop overflow. This is a HUGE HUGE nerf to Norway, who had a forest and coastal start bias as well as +50% production to melee ships. This is literally the only thing that Norway has going for them currently.

 

[Victoria]

It's been suggested that the coastal raid will be able to pillage up to three tiles inland (instead of one) if those tiles are touching a river that the longship is adjacent to.

eloquent, one can always learn from the simplest of solutions.