Not building Temples

[Rambuchan]

I have never played a game of civ in which I didn't build temples. I have a real 'culture habit'. I can understand the build time and maintenance arguments. And I can also see that against human players culture may not matter so much. But can someone please explain the virtues of not building temples? If there is an article written somewhere, a link would be great, and then by all means delete the thread. Thanks .

 

[peter grimes]

Thanks for not being shy about asking that. I was wondering as well. I started thinking it through, and here's where I'm at:

They increase culture. Against human players, culture will not be a strategy the enemy uses, so there's no reason we should 'defend' against a neighbor's high culture. It is not a desirable win strategy because of the length of time involved. Maybe for a religious civ it could pay off, but even then only against particular neighbors.

Temples also keep people happy. This is the only advantage I can see for our game. But there must be a trade-off: The resources and time spent building a temple vs. building a worker to limit growth and adjust happiness with citizen allocation. I certainly don't have numbers for this, but if I were playing a game it would be simple to see.

Anyone else?

 

[Chamnix]

I agree – I think the main problem is the opportunity cost. For 60 shields (assuming non-religious) and 1 gold per turn for the rest of the game, you get one happy citizen in one city which is really not all that much.

It is very hard to generalize numbers, but if you are having happiness problems in many cities, you could be talking about hundreds of shields in temples (and significant gold in upkeep). It is often much more efficient to pour those hundreds of shields into military and go claim another luxury for the same happy face (or more if you have 3+ luxuries and marketplaces) and no upkeep. Or even building a happiness wonder like the Hanging Gardens for 300 shields or JS Bachs for 600 shields (which I also don’t really advocate) is much more efficient than building multiple temples.

If your happiness problems are localized (probably a corrupt town where the luxury slider is ineffective), and you are considering building a temple in 1-2 towns, I think you are better off producing a worker (more workers is always good – worst case is you add him to a slow-growing city that doesn’t have happiness problems), or even hiring a specialist. I avoid specialists at all cost in the early game when food and growth are critical, but later on in corrupt towns, specialist farms can give your research an enormous boost.

I guess the point is, there isn’t anything wrong with temples, but there are almost always better things to do with those shields.

 

[Rambuchan]

Interesting stuff. Thanks. Most of it totally new to me, or a new mentality.

I agree on many points like specialists etc, but I guess not playing against humans before always left me leaning on a culture crutch. I'd be interested to hear what others have to say, oh and let's go find that other luxs near us quicktime!!!

I'm still unsure:

a) Whether this plan works with growing large cities, for their extra population and research / commerce purposes. I mean do you actually grow cities big as part of this plan?

b) When we want to grow our cities, say 5+, how do we keep them happy? We may not have another lux on our continent and I'm loath to trade for some, we'd get screwed for all we were worth .

c) There's something else you're not telling me .

Love the emphasis on military overall though. This does change some perceptions.

 

[fe3333au]

I'm a temple man ... and i think that some should be built if only to expand the city boarders ... and therefore encompasing more resources into our Empire ...

More Lux and Strats -> Better trade options -> Better deals

I am frustrated and strangely intriged with this strategy ... which is all very good

 

[Chamnix]

@ Rambuchan - I usually don't grow my cities that fast. In despotism cities almost never grow because you are building lots of workers and settlers, and in despotism and monarchy you can use MP if necessary, so we will assume we are a Republic. You really need cities to grow to at least 7 in Republic for unit support. In Republic, each citizen should produce a minimum of 2g based on working a roaded tile, some will hopefully produce more (river, coast, or some bonus). If you have 7 citizens, the city should be producing at least 18g (2 per citizen plus 4 for the city tile assuming no corruption). Assuming emperor level or higher, you get 1 happy for free. If you have no luxuries, you need 40% luxury spending (ouch!). If you have 2 luxuries (which shouldn't be hard to get, and is really an absolute minimum for survival in Republic), then luxury tax has to keep only 4 people happy and can be lowered to 20%.

My cities typically won't get much larger than 8 early in the Republic years - it does become expensive, and also at that point, you still need lots of workers, so I will often skim a worker off on growth to 8. By the mid to late Middle Ages, I would expect to have a minimum of 4 luxuries (via trade if I can't get them myself) and a marketplace which provide 6 happy faces. If I want to grow to size 12, my city will produce a minimum of 28g so to keep the other 5 content, I still only need 20% luxuries. A fifth or sixth luxury, and you have no problems at all.

Of course, all of this is written from a single-player perspective. I have no idea how easy or difficult it will be to acquire or trade for luxuries in this game.

@fe3333au - for cultural expansion, we will build libraries

 

[Kentharu]

libraries= easier more science, faster tech, 40 shield and good culture
temple= 60 shield maintence, happy bonus (which to me is useless) and culture
get the library

 

[fe3333au]

Damn forgot about library cultural expansion <desparately looking for forhead slapping smilie>

 

[Rambuchan]

@ Cham: A very educational write up there, thanks! I'm coming around much more and being a culture addict I know of the benefits a library will bring for us. I'm still crapping myself about a lack of luxuries though. The whole plan seems to rest on having those. If we don't have any for our own, it means breaking with our relatively peaceful game plan or paying well over the odds for a luxs. I'm curious to see the plan unfold...

 

[Rik Meleet]

Damn forgot about library cultural expansion <desparately looking for forhead slapping smilie>

here it is: