Now there are 3 Community Reps for 2K

[Aeon221]

@2K_E: Thanks muchly for the sudden flood of responses, but I'd personally prefer you didn't leave the impression that whiny, combative posts can force a response while polite ones go unanswered.

Lord knows there's enough moaning on this forum without people thinking that behaving like a twit might win them some tidbits of information.

The opinion of a person can change a lot over the course of years. Heck, my experience and opinions from the days of Warlords is probably a lot different to what it is now.

If you believe a post to be trolling, please report it to moderators and action will be taken if necessary.

Also, I would like to remind that one of the conditions of being "civil" which is what moderators keep asking us to do, is focusing on the arguments and posts of civfanatics members rather than the members themselves. This means it would be a good idea to avoid getting into discussions about the motives of any individual poster. It shouldn't matter what their motives are - if their posts are wrong then you can point out why they are wrong.
Just as it is now not permitted in the civ5 forum to call any members tinfoil hatters, sunshine squad or corporate shills for the same reasons (speculating on the nature or motives of individual posters).

Hear hear. I can think of a few poorly written posts from years ago that I'd hate to see again.

I think it's more than a little shameful for people to bring up the posting history of others, sans context, and then use it to question their motives. Was that a shameful post? Without question. Do we know what the precipitating factors were? Absolutely not.

White Elk's behavior in this thread may well be appalling, but that's no reason to start up with ad hominems and snotty remarks. Better to raise the tone than lower it, I say.

Well, unless lowering the tone would be funnier. But that? That wasn't funny. Just cheap. Cheap, and unbecoming and certainly something that shouldn't happen again.

 

[ori]

Moderator Action: Discuss the topic - not other users.

 

[aziantuntija]

Elizabeth do you have any info about the size of the manual in the standard edition?

Well?

 

[Commander Bello]

I don't know how you think I'm spinning something when I say that the FAQ is being finalized and I'm sorry it took longer than Greg estimated (end of June.) This is the kind of situation that I hate getting in - people always want firm dates, but unless I know for a fact I can make that date, I don't even want to give a range because a range will end up as a promise, and if you can't guarantee that, well, then people say you are fluffy!

Sorry, Elizabeth, but that's not the point.

Greg was confronted with some questions (let's say, 50 of them, which easily could be condensed into 25 major sections) without having given any answer to these questions at all.

Sure, some of these questions were really about technical details and everyone understands that answering them will take time and effort.
Yet, the majority of questions was more about "policy" like what will be 2K's policy in terms of the content of Babylon might be used in a user-made mod?

I would be very surprised to learn that this question for instance at the moment cannot be answered (emphasis on the "can"-part).

Fact is, our "community manager" for almost 6 weeks did not give us any answers if not something which had already been stated in press releases, interviews or would have been available by other means.

Yes, you can play over the same internet connection if you have two Steam accounts. You won't be able to play the game on the same Steam account on two computers simultaneously, but as long as you are logged in under different profiles, you are good to go.

I would like to make it more tangible:
I am sitting behind a WLAN router. This router get's an IP from my ISP.
What will happen if I am playing with my stationary (cable-connected) computer, while my girlfriend would like to play via WLAN (both with different accounts, of course)?

As far as I see it, Steam would detect 2 (two) different accounts sharing the one and same IP address. Will this still work?
In the worst case, would such a thing be regarded as "cheating" by the automatic control within the Steam network?

I don't have any information for any other future content releases of any kind right now.

We have been informed that functionalities like match-making, PBEM, hotseat will not be included in the initial release.

It would have been my assumption that they are delivered later as DLC (or patch, or update, or whatever term you would prefer).
Now, I could read your above statement as if you were not aware of any such plans.

Would you consider to rephrase your statement, or do we have to take it as is?

 

[Steph]

Well, I'd be very happy to know why I never got an swer to the proposal I sent you. Just a "we'll answer soon", and then nothing, despite several inquiries by emails.

 

[Lillefix]

Well, I'd be very happy to know why I never got an swer to the proposal I sent you. Just a "we'll answer soon", and then nothing, despite several inquiries by emails.

Aren't you already married?

Anyway nice to see Civ5 has marathon from the start this time(I assume so, since there are four speeds.).

 

[Steph]

"You" meant 2k_games, not Elizabeth specifically

 

[12agnar0k]

I would like to make it more tangible:
I am sitting behind a WLAN router. This router get's an IP from my ISP.
What will happen if I am playing with my stationary (cable-connected) computer, while my girlfriend would like to play via WLAN (both with different accounts, of course)?

As far as I see it, Steam would detect 2 (two) different accounts sharing the one and same IP address. Will this still work?
In the worst case, would such a thing be regarded as "cheating" by the automatic control within the Steam network?

Hey, I can answer this.

Yes you will both be able to play online with the your own Steam accounts at the same time, using the same internet connection. I already answered this query from another user. No Steam does not consider this cheating.

Thier is a related note however, Steam has a "LAN - Cafe" license, where by LAN cafe's need to procure a paid version of Steam because its a business. Now you can "cheat" and bypass this license by having 40 seperate Steam accounts all logging in at the same time, through the internet connection, so while having 2 Steam accounts on your IP will be no trouble to you, if you have some kind of baby boom family and have 18 brothers and sisters all of whom will have a steam account and copy of civ 5 all playing through the same internet connection, then you will start to look like an Internet Cafe thats "cheating" the Licensense argeement and you should contact Steam for advice... if anyone is in that particular position , But if that's not the case, and you will only have a few Steam accounts in your household then that Is fine, I believe i've had three Steam accounts online in my house playing together on the internet.

Hopefully I was of some help.

How big will the manual be?

Well Azian, theirs still 2 months till release, if they have even written the manual yet, I doubt they are willing to give a definitive answer when the manual's contents may very well change with 2 months more development to go. I mean a manual needs Technical information like what hardware specs you need, and they haven't even confirmed this yet, so the likely hood of having completed the manual without finalising the information that needs to go inside it is very unlikely.

 

[ori]

if there is a printed manual of any meaningful content it would have to be finalized very soon, since it would first need to go through the necessary proof reading stage, then go to the various translators for inclusion in the localized versions and then printed. So this is actually a point that should be set in stone by now

 

[Aeon221]

if there is a printed manual of any meaningful content it would have to be finalized very soon, since it would first need to go through the necessary proof reading stage, then go to the various translators for inclusion in the localized versions and then printed. So this is actually a point that should be set in stone by now

Large parts of the manual can be written without reference to specifics and translated, with the specifics (and a few screen shots) added in later. Broad elements of major features (like for instance, population growth) can be written up months in advance of the gold master, and then altered or trashed based on continuing development.

Only the stuff like units and interface has to wait -- and those areas are either small (like most sections on interface) or can be broken down into manageable piecework (like units).

From there, well, a team of high WPM individuals and a commercial grade translation suite (or google translator in a pinch) can seal the deal a lot faster than you'd think.

Finally, most modern manuals keep their size to a minimum, which has obvious ramifications for crunch time revisions.

Of course, the whole thing is irrelevant if you've got even the most basic of internet connections, since you can usually check an official or unofficial wiki to get information that isn't out of date before it's printed.

 

[2K Elizabeth]

Sorry, Elizabeth, but that's not the point.

Greg was confronted with some questions (let's say, 50 of them, which easily could be condensed into 25 major sections) without having given any answer to these questions at all.

Sure, some of these questions were really about technical details and everyone understands that answering them will take time and effort.
Yet, the majority of questions was more about "policy" like what will be 2K's policy in terms of the content of Babylon might be used in a user-made mod?

I would be very surprised to learn that this question for instance at the moment cannot be answered (emphasis on the "can"-part).

Fact is, our "community manager" for almost 6 weeks did not give us any answers if not something which had already been stated in press releases, interviews or would have been available by other means.


I would like to make it more tangible:
I am sitting behind a WLAN router. This router get's an IP from my ISP.
What will happen if I am playing with my stationary (cable-connected) computer, while my girlfriend would like to play via WLAN (both with different accounts, of course)?

As far as I see it, Steam would detect 2 (two) different accounts sharing the one and same IP address. Will this still work?
In the worst case, would such a thing be regarded as "cheating" by the automatic control within the Steam network?


We have been informed that functionalities like match-making, PBEM, hotseat will not be included in the initial release.

It would have been my assumption that they are delivered later as DLC (or patch, or update, or whatever term you would prefer).
Now, I could read your above statement as if you were not aware of any such plans.

Would you consider to rephrase your statement, or do we have to take it as is?

One thing I'd like you to remember is that Greg is the community manager of Civilization, but not the community manager of CFC. Under my directive, his first priorities are to our official outlets. So don't take that as an insult, and in many of these cases, this isn't his lack of interest in you but the fact he's working on other stuff or, as you surmise, the answers aren't ready for prime time yet.

You will get answers about user made content and mods, as well as other features such as hot seat and match making. And you'll get them before September 21st, so you can make an informed decision on the game.

Most of the questions being asked here (sans some about Steam which are more for Valve to answer) are going to be answered - so all in good time.

And Greg's back today. In case you guys missed it, he was out of the office, working on features but not on the forums, so I was here to fill in. He'll be back, so I hope you play nicer with him than you did me!

 

[King Jason]

Not only will I wait 9 months to pay $5 for Babylon, but I'll wait 9 months to buy Civ V at all if that's what I have to do to be sure the option is available. I waited probably pretty close to that long before buying Watchmen until I was able to get a version with the director's cut and Tales of the Black Freighter woven in. I didn't know for sure such a thing would even be released, but I waited until it was before buying rather than buy the same movie twice.

This is kind of silly. But I can't argue with you because I waited until civ4 beyond the sword before I purchased anything other than Civ4 Vanilla. I wasn't going to pay extra for warlords, and then extra for an inevitable future expansion that would include everything warlords had, or replace some stuff. Since scenarios are no importance to me that is.

Hell, I didn't even buy civ3 until civ:3 complete... saving me the most amount of money.

If that's how you want to roll, than go for it... but barking at 2k reps for not releasing and/or finalizing their production/distribution plans is silly. For example, not buying civ4 warlords, on my part, was a gamble. I had to assume that civ4 would have the usual 2 expansions.

But what if it hadn't? What if the final confirmation that there wouldn't be another expansion didn't come for quite some time. That's X amount a time I could've had "the finished product" but didn't cause I'm trying to save myself a couple bucks.

I wouldn't argue that what you're trying to do is any different than what I do. A game comes out for 50 bucks... X time later they release an expansion for 30... X time later they release a combo pack of both the original game and the expansion for 30-50... Being aware that things will likely work this way means I can make the the decision to spend more money and get content as it's released, or wait and manipulate the distribution model.

It's no different than this piece of DLC... pay 10 bucks and get it now... or wait X months until it's available for 5... or who knows? maybe it'll be included in the first expansion. So will you wait until then? Your choice obviously. I wouldn't... even as someone who functions similar to you.

 

[mjs0]

Hi Elizabeth and Greg (welcome back),
I'm back with more pesky gameplay questions...I know you'd prefer Steam questions but what can I do...

There has been a lot of speculation about roads and their how they will affect gameplay. I've extracted some of the questions (and supplemented) below:

So, can you drop us any hints about roads?

• their economic effects (tile bonuses/penalties, build/upkeep/maintenance costs, etc)
• their movement effects (movement bonuses, effects on tile owner/friends/enemies, etc)
• their evolution (graphical changes over time, replacement with railroads(?), etc)

Also, (since I'm back asking more gameplay Qs), I'm not sure if you answered my original question about what sort of questions were in-play and answerable. I know you're not going to spill the beans on everything, but are you OK with dropping hints in response to questions like this?

 

[fresca]

if there is a printed manual of any meaningful content it would have to be finalized very soon, since it would first need to go through the necessary proof reading stage, then go to the various translators for inclusion in the localized versions and then printed. So this is actually a point that should be set in stone by now

Seconded! I have such fond memories of playing a Civ (1, 2, 3 and 4) game til my eyes bled, then taking the manual with me to read in bed just trying to glean a new nugget of Sid's wisdom

2k Elizabeth, I will graciously volunteer my time to help ensure the Civ5 manual is all it should be

 

[cccv]

This is kind of silly. But I can't argue with you because I waited until civ4 beyond the sword before I purchased anything other than Civ4 Vanilla. I wasn't going to pay extra for warlords, and then extra for an inevitable future expansion that would include everything warlords had, or replace some stuff. Since scenarios are no importance to me that is.

Hell, I didn't even buy civ3 until civ:3 complete... saving me the most amount of money.

If that's how you want to roll, than go for it... but barking at 2k reps for not releasing and/or finalizing their production/distribution plans is silly. For example, not buying civ4 warlords, on my part, was a gamble. I had to assume that civ4 would have the usual 2 expansions.

But what if it hadn't? What if the final confirmation that there wouldn't be another expansion didn't come for quite some time. That's X amount a time I could've had "the finished product" but didn't cause I'm trying to save myself a couple bucks.

I wouldn't argue that what you're trying to do is any different than what I do. A game comes out for 50 bucks... X time later they release an expansion for 30... X time later they release a combo pack of both the original game and the expansion for 30-50... Being aware that things will likely work this way means I can make the the decision to spend more money and get content as it's released, or wait and manipulate the distribution model.

It's no different than this piece of DLC... pay 10 bucks and get it now... or wait X months until it's available for 5... or who knows? maybe it'll be included in the first expansion. So will you wait until then? Your choice obviously. I wouldn't... even as someone who functions similar to you.

I wasn't barking at anyone, that was a reply to someone who asked if I'd rather pay more now or pay less later. My response was that I'd rather pay less later.

I know it is a little extreme to wait that long to possibly save less than 10 dollars, and possibly end up paying the same anyway. But there's a few reasons.

For one thing I'm in a unique position to wait. My computer is... what's the polite euphemism?... Crappy. I was going to replace it back in February, but then I found out civ V was announced, so I waited. I'm using a single core sempron processor, 1.80 Ghz, 704 MB of ram... you get the idea. Point is, when my new comp gets here at the end of the month I will have a crap-ton of games I'll be able to play that I could never play before. I can keep myself busy.

For another, it's kind of a principle thing. I would just feel cheated if I paid 10 dollars for one civ-- well frankly I'll feel cheated anyway, but I'll feel even more cheated if I were to pay $10 for one civ only for it to be released in an expansion I'd buy anyway or as cheaper DLC. I don't care when I get Babylon, so the "pay more now to get it sooner" rationale doesn't work with me. I don't want to feel cheated, and I don't want to feel like I was tricked by the company into making an uninformed decision (i.e. they kept me in the dark so they could use my uncertainty to persuade me to spend more than I needed to). A lot of people here are predicting that Babylon will be DLC, and some of them aren't going to buy deluxe based just on that prediction. Unlike them, I'm not willing to take that risk of losing out on ever having Babylon unless I buy the whole game again. So I'm going to wait and see for sure.

I really don't know how long I'll wait it out. Honestly I'm predicting that DLC will be announced very shortly after the game is released, and I'm hoping Babylon will be one of the options. If not, maybe if there's a sale around Xmas that saves me roughly 10 bucks anyway, I'll go ahead and get it.

 

[White Elk]

Well, no prizes for guessing White Elk's agenda for being on this Forum-just read this post he made a few years back:

Spoiler :

Frustrated with Firaxis
I have defended you during the initial release of CivIV to all those civers who couldnt play your game due to graphic card troubles. Now after all this time I am back to say you really do SUCK! I feel cheated by you big time. I could speak pages of your lack of attention to detail etc. But this is the Warlords forum so....

Your expansion Warlords is a joke! The AI is far dumber than it was prior to Warlords. You used Blakes incomplete AI FIX which was a backwards step bigtime. I can Possibly forgive Some of your lack of attention to detail, but your stupidity in including an incomplete user mod into an expansion which you sold me is unforgivable. That expansion was Weak and Broken! You have lost me finally. I dont even need to risk buying Railroads or any other Firaxis title. I stuck with you through all the bs of Civ3 and promises not kept. Even after my experiance with Civ3 and your broken promises I preordered Civ4. And I even looked past the lastest promises unkept in Civ4. But now finally after much experiance with Civ4 I am finally done with you! SO MUCH OF THE GAME IS BROKEN. TOOOO MUCH!!! Finally I have had my fill with Firaxis. I overlooked soooooo much. But today I must say my piece. I feel you sold me a piece of junk that was not worthy of my sacrifice to buy your game. I read about Railroads Tycoon and its problems and that combined with my experiance with Civ is enough to dissuade me from purchasing ANY Firaxian titles for myself or family. I am done with you! For years now I have nearly SOLEY played Civ. I was an addict of this game and vocal proponent of Firaxis. I was a most loyal fan. I wanted to purchase Railroads for a few family members but I dont want to gift them aggravation with a game incomplete. You cheated us. Its been a pain in the arse. I dont want to spread this trouble by gifting it to others.

After two Civ games and multiple expansions I say Firaxis is untrustworthy of our money. Not only will I not waste further money for my own gaming needs (and for years now Civ has been over 90% of my gaming time), but I will not risk gifitng family and friends games like Pirates and Railroad Tycoon because of how poorly you have produced Civ$. Nor will I have anything but ill to say to others regarding my Firaxian experiance. I used to nearly worship you and have nearly played Civilization exclusively. You broke that relationship with shoddy product. Once bitten twice shy. Youve gone further than that and I still stuck with you. But now I am past the delusion. You just suck. I'll not risk more on you!

Seriously, for a guy who so clearly despises 2K, Firaxis & the Civilization Franchise in general, I really do wonder why he even bothers retaining membership at this site.

That's ^ a low blow, user directed attack I find hard to ignore without response. First of all, this level of posting doesn't represent much more than 1% of my post total. Your case for my "agenda" towards participation in this community is patently false. You had to dig deep and ignore much to make this personal attack to discredit my pov. Within the spoiler exists my reasoning...

Spoiler :

I wrote that 3 years ago during a time of personal difficulty. I was having a bit of trouble with a few things, stemming from a medical situation. Was surprised to later learn how liver function affects brain function. My perception of, and reaction to, various things and people was tweaked towards intensity. People who knew me saw me as living beyond established character. What can I say, but that I am embarrassed by those postings and a couple others. I survived. Thanks for bringing it up. Why?

Despite being a jerk with those postings, I think my points are still valid. At the time, Warlords latest patch had been advertised as introducing a more advanced AI. When in fact the AI had been nerfed silly! If not a general consensus, there was considerable agreement that the patch had negatively impacted the game. Nearly a year passes and there was still no patch for the patch. Nor was there any word from Firaxis/2k if there ever would be one. Thats when I made my post. I put most all that blame onto Firaxis (as well as for Civ4 shipping in a buggy state, and Civ3 not shipping with the editor and MP play as advertised, no final C3C patch etc.). While prior to this period, I had gone all fan-boy on the forums, posting in positive defense of Civ4 during that whole graphics mess +. I campaigned on the forums for civility and respect. Hah! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.


Taking the heat off Firaxis:

Some short time after making that series of overblown posts (the thread OP you quote from), a CivFanatic who was involved with the Civ4 process, and who shall remain nameless per request; advised me as to how Firaxis only has so much say as relates to release dates, the patch process, informing fans as to project schedules, amount of time applied to testing, and more. Then in searching out confirmation as to the validity of that email, I learned more about Civ3 and how the switch from Infograms to Atari and then to 2k had impacted the game. I became aware that some things I had blamed on Firaxis, were in fact in the publishers domain.

This newfound limited understanding as to the politics of game making didn't change my opinion much. It just helped to take some heat off of Firaxis. I had still taken a step back from the franchise. But then comes BTS which is advertised as fixing the MAF, improving the AI, fixing Vassal States, and more, as well as adding an unbelievable amount of content to the game. Never had a Civ expansion pack been so ambitious. Beyond all that cool fluff, BTS appeared to me to be an exhaustive Civ4 patch. So I bought back into the franchise. Unfortunately BTS did not fully resolve the MAF, Vassals still needed tweaking, and BTS introduced new things needing balance. The AI was a bit improved though! But the BTS patch process floundered the way of Warlords. My frustrations over the franchise grew greater than at the time of Warlords. But my postings on the matter were a bit more civil.


Back and forth like a crossing guard:

I completly passed on Civ4: Colonization. This was the first time I had passed on a Civ title. I've no current desire to even buy a copy from the bargain bin. It's a Civ4 game, and I am not motivated to buy back into Civ4. Some Civ4 mods still have my interest though.

Well, now we are at near present and the news that Civ5 was coming rocked my world. Despite it all, I got excited over it. My deep felt fondness for Civ trumped all! I was looking quite forward to giving the latest installment of Civ a go. Big changes and the inclusion of a variety of things I'd been looking for. I had hope that lessons were learned and that the Civ5 process would be different than Civ.

Then came the news of steam. I read up on it, then researched deeper for a time. Some big questions came up, and were validated by reading a multitude of accounts by steam users. Many civers share some of my concerns and we post about them. 2k comes in and offers answers but still gives none after all this time. This feels a fatal blow. At the very least I pass on Civ5 until/if a steam free, fully patched Complete Edition is released. Dependant upon what I learn from the community, I may wait for Complete to hit the bargain bins, or I may skip Civ5 altogether. I still love Civ's style. It will be sorely missed if this should be the end. But I still enjoy Civ3 and Civ4 mods. I've also found an alternate to Civ. Published under a superior model than 2k's.

Yet I am still interested in Civs future. And I've still a desire to particpate with this community for which I have an 8 1/2 year history with. CFC was the first forum I actively particpated in (and it mighta been my first forum registration). There is no forum that I have posted more at, or for longer, than CFC. I still have interests and fellowship here.

.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

That's ^ a low blow, user directed attack I find hard to ignore without response. First of all, this level of posting doesn't represent much more than 1% of my post total. Your case for my "agenda" towards participation in this community is patently false. You had to dig deep and ignore much to make this personal attack to discredit my pov. Within the spoiler exists my reasoning...

Spoiler :

I wrote that 3 years ago during a time of personal difficulty. I was having a bit of trouble with a few things, stemming from a medical situation. Was surprised to later learn how liver function affects brain function. My perception of, and reaction to, various things and people was tweaked. People who knew me saw me as living beyond established character. What can I say, but that I am embarrassed by those postings and a couple others. I survived. Thanks for bringing it up. Why?

Despite being a jerk with those postings, I think my points are still valid. At the time, Warlords latest patch had been advertised as introducing a more advanced AI. When in fact the AI had been nerfed silly! If not a general consensus, there was considerable agreement that the patch had negatively impacted the game. Nearly a year passes and there was still no patch for the patch. Nor was there any word from Firaxis/2k if there ever would be one. Thats when I made my post. I put most all that blame onto Firaxis (as well as for Civ4 shipping in a buggy state, and Civ3 not shipping with the editor and MP play as advertised, no final C3C patch etc.). While prior to this period, I had gone all fan-boy on the forums, posting in positive defense of Civ4 during that whole graphics mess +. I campaigned on the forums for civility and respect. Hah! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.


Taking the heat off Firaxis:

Some short time after making that series of overblown posts (the thread OP you quote from), a CivFanatic who was involved with the Civ4 process, and who shall remain nameless per request; advised me as to how Firaxis only has so much say as relates to release dates, the patch process, informing fans as to project schedules, amount of time applied to testing, and more. Then in searching out confirmation as to the validity of that email, I learned more about Civ3 and how the switch from Infograms to Atari and then to 2k had impacted the game. I became aware that some things I had blamed on Firaxis, were in fact in the publishers domain.

This newfound limited understanding as to the politics of game making didn't change my opinion much. It just helped to take some heat off of Firaxis. I had still taken a step back from the franchise. But then comes BTS which is advertised as fixing the MAF, improving the AI, fixing Vassal States, and more, as well as adding an unbelievable amount of content to the game. Never had a Civ expansion pack been so ambitious. Beyond all that cool fluff, BTS appeared to me to be an exhaustive Civ4 patch. So I bought back into the franchise. Unfortunately BTS did not fully resolve the MAF, Vassals still needed tweaking, and BTS introduced new things needing balance. The AI was a bit improved though! But the BTS patch process floundered the way of Warlords. My frustrations over the franchise grew greater than at the time of Warlords. But my postings on the matter were a bit more civil.


Back and forth like a crossing guard:

I completly passed on Civ4: Colonization. This was the first time I had passed on a Civ title. I've no current desire to even buy a copy from the bargain bin. It's a Civ4 game, and I am not motivated to buy back into Civ4. Some Civ4 mods still have my interest though.

Well, now we are at near present and the news that Civ5 was coming rocked my world. Despite it all, I got excited over it. My deep felt fondness for Civ trumped all! I was looking quite forward to giving the latest installment of Civ a go. Big changes and the inclusion of a variety of things I'd been looking for. I had hope that lessons were learned and that the Civ5 process would be different than Civ.

Then came the news of steam. I read up on it, then researched deeper for a time. Some big questions came up, and were validated by reading a multitude of accounts by steam users. Many civers share some of my concerns and we post about them. 2k comes in and offers answers but still gives none after all this time. This feels a fatal blow. At the very least I pass on Civ5 until/if a steam free, fully patched Complete Edition is released. Dependant upon what I learn from the community, I may wait for Complete to hit the bargain bins, or I may skip Civ5 altogether. I still love Civ's style. It will be sorely missed if this should be the end. But I still enjoy Civ3 and Civ4 mods. I've also found an alternate to Civ. Published under a superior model than 2k's.

Yet I am still interested in Civs future. And I've still a desire to particpate with this community for which I have an 8 1/2 year history with. CFC was the first forum I actively particpated in (and it mighta been my first forum registration). There is no forum that I have posted more at, or for longer, than CFC. I still have interests and fellowship here.

.

For what its worth, White Elk, I do recognize that what I did in that post was *wrong*. It was certainly *not* my finest hour. Whatever our disagreements about Civ5 & Steam, I do apologize for crossing that line!

I still argue, though, that the shift to an online validation system is not the Apocalypse that you & a handful of others are trying to make it sound. Indeed, I see a number of benefits in switching to Steam-beyond Net Validation. I have seen enough FAQ's from people who already *use* Steam to see that the arguments against it are massively overblown.

Aussie.

 

[Olaf_The_Great]

PR people and community reps are known for talking a lot and saying very little of value.

Elizabeth has given this community a lot of information, and I assume 2K is working on a way to address our questions.

...even if they're just another corporation out there to milk their customers for all they're worth. Atleast they're trying.

 

[White Elk]

For what its worth, White Elk, I do recognize that what I did in that post was *wrong*. It was certainly *not* my finest hour. Whatever our disagreements about Civ5 & Steam, I do apologize for crossing that line!

I still argue, though, that the shift to an online validation system is not the Apocalypse that you & a handful of others are trying to make it sound. Indeed, I see a number of benefits in switching to Steam-beyond Net Validation. I have seen enough FAQ's from people who already *use* Steam to see that the arguments against it are massively overblown.

Aussie.

Apology accepted. And since my own worst hour has re-surfaced, I again apologize to Firaxis for the bum rap, and to the community at large for all that hostile negative junk I dumped on the forum. All's well that ends well? :~)

Stardocks Impulse & Reactor models are something I whole heartedly accept. I've even signed up despite not having bought any product yet. The steam, steamworks model is one I don't accept. I've my reasoning and have shared bits of it here and there. Perhaps I may post a Reactor/Impulse vs Steamworks/steam comparison in an applicable thread.

I also value Stardocks publishing methods. I understand that 2k is in a different situation, and has their own external overlord to contend with. Whereas Stardock runs their own show from top to bottom. But I find 2k's execution of community reps here at CFC, to be disingenuous to the purpose that Greg was introduced to us. The reps are installed for 2k purpose. And I don't have a problem with that; despite a strong preference towards an open and interactive relationship with software developers. I really don't have a problem with 2k expending resource to spread the word about their product. I'd be pushing my product as well. But if community reps are advertised as being here for us... well I think it natural to assume we'd see some increased interaction and updating. Otherwise, we get no boon beyond what 2k already hands out as article and review fodder. Anywaaaaay, theres more but no purpose is served crusading it here... see Stardock for how I think it all done best.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Its all good White Elk !

As I've said elsewhere, White Elk. You might be correct that there are other, better sources of Online Validation/MP Lobby etc. available. That doesn't automatically make Steam "the tool of Satan" TM . It certainly isn't enough to make me completely reconsider my desire to purchase Civ5 (though, strangely enough, its going to be the first time in the history of the franchise where I will be playing an *earlier* version as much as the new version-that is testament to what I feel is the brilliance of Civ4, rather than necessarily any slight on Civ5 btw). If I run into major problems with Steam when I get the game, then you'd better *believe* that I'll be yelling as loudly as anyone else about how "crap" it is. However, everything I've seen & read-to date-makes me confident that though Steam might not be *the best* option, it most certainly doesn't look like *the worst* option!

Aussie.