Now there are 3 Community Reps for 2K

[Olaf_The_Great]

The Tool of Satan sounds like a good rock band name, BTW.

I don't think Steam is the end of the world, just that it's a slippery slope.

 

[White Elk]

Its all good White Elk !

As I've said elsewhere, White Elk. You might be correct that there are other, better sources of Online Validation/MP Lobby etc. available. That doesn't automatically make Steam "the tool of Satan" TM . It certainly isn't enough to make me completely reconsider my desire to purchase Civ5 (though, strangely enough, its going to be the first time in the history of the franchise where I will be playing an *earlier* version as much as the new version-that is testament to what I feel is the brilliance of Civ4, rather than necessarily any slight on Civ5 btw). If I run into major problems with Steam when I get the game, then you'd better *believe* that I'll be yelling as loudly as anyone else about how "crap" it is. However, everything I've seen & read-to date-makes me confident that though Steam might not be *the best* option, it most certainly doesn't look like *the worst* option!

Aussie.

My aversion to steam boils down to not wanting to add activation complications and increased failure points to the game for no reason other than to support steams drive to steamroll the digital distribution market. Steamworks needs not run the way it does. This was choice. It was also choice to make Civ5 a steam ESD exclusive. Not cool in my book! And it would take a book to express my resistance towards monopolist endeavour.

The macro impact of steamrolling aside... I don't want to be hassled in my gaming time. I just want to plug in and play. I've long grown tired of constant software updates and compatibility issues. I rage against time wasted trouble shooting and re-installing this and that. steam offers this with probability enough for my concern. Just look at their patching history. Playing at just once a week, you are nearly assured of having to update the client every few gaming sessions. All this for no other reason than to support steams self interests. I believe take-2/2k has its own interests towards the data which steam will provide them. Data gathered using our system resources and using our internet bandwidth. I think steams model fits the free games market. When I've purchased something, I should not be further hassled by the vendor.

I've other concerns but the above serves as a short-form here. Some civers say these concerns are based on falsehoods; but I see these concerns validated in large numbers at the steam forums and misc gaming forums. But you know, if not for the exclusive ESD, the auto-patching, the persistent validation, the ever running client, and more... I might be willing to deal with the increased frustration of having another piece of software to fiddle fix around with. But steam simply introduces far too many negatives. While offering me nothing useful. I do understand that Steamworks gives the developers a networking toolset, and it provides a ready made mod hub; but none of that requires the control methods which steam employs.


To tie this in to 2k reps... If 2k would provide our steam related answers, then perhaps some of my concerns may be resolved
with authority. LoL... though a tone of sunny sided marketing spin, might compel me to take those words at decreased value. ;~p

 

[Rusty Edge]

White Elk was a regular in some of the Civ V threads when they were purely speculative discussions, before V was officially announced, before there was a Civ V forum. I think that IV and it's expansion are not only the greatest version of Civ, but the greatest video game of all time. White Elk tried vanilla and returned to Civ III, but that didn't stop him from respectfully offering and discussing ideas for V. He was eagerly anticipating V more than most on this forum. He cares deeply about civ, or he wouldn't continue to be involved.

I suspect that when V comes out, and I've had a chance to familiarize myself with it, I'll owe him some thanks for a change or two he advocated.

 

[3 EMS]

White Elk:
My aversion to steam boils down to not wanting to add activation complications and increased failure points to the game for no reason other than to support steams drive to steamroll the digital distribution market. Steamworks needs not run the way it does. This was choice. It was also choice to make Civ5 a steam ESD exclusive. Not cool in my book! And it would take a book to express my resistance towards monopolist endeavour.

The macro impact of steamrolling aside... I don't want to be hassled in my gaming time. I just want to plug in and play. I've long grown tired of constant software updates and compatibility issues. I rage against time wasted trouble shooting and re-installing this and that. steam offers this with probability enough for my concern. Just look at their patching history. Playing at just once a week, you are nearly assured of having to update the client every few gaming sessions. All this for no other reason than to support steams self interests. I believe take-2/2k has its own interests towards the data which steam will provide them. Data gathered using our system resources and using our internet bandwidth. I think steams model fits the free games market. When I've purchased something, I should not be further hassled by the vendor.

I've other concerns but the above serves as a short-form here. Some civers say these concerns are based on falsehoods; but I see these concerns validated in large numbers at the steam forums and misc gaming forums. But you know, if not for the exclusive ESD, the auto-patching, the persistent validation, the ever running client, and more... I might be willing to deal with the increased frustration of having another piece of software to fiddle fix around with. But steam simply introduces far too many negatives. While offering me nothing useful. I do understand that Steamworks gives the developers a networking toolset, and it provides a ready made mod hub; but none of that requires the control methods which steam employs.


To tie this in to 2k reps... If 2k would provide our steam related answers, then perhaps some of my concerns may be resolved
with authority. LoL... though a tone of sunny sided marketing spin, might compel me to take those words at decreased value.

This pretty much parallels my feelings. I would like to thank you for expressing it so well on these forums. I probably would be hard pressed to state it as well as you have.
To add to it. It looks like 2K Greg pretty much ackowledged your views to be true. In a reply to one of Pieceofmind's posts he stated that one would have to contact valve to find information regarding these concerns. Either he can't because he doesn't have access to the information or doing so would be contrary to the idea of selling the game. I find it hard to believe that 2K would enter into an agreement with steam without fully understanding the EULA that steam would subject their CIV players. Not just the EULA but steam's business practices as well. I think they just don't want to alienate potential customers by telling them what they would actually be purchasing.

 

[The_J]

I don't think so.
This is just reasonable. If you have a question about Steam, then ask Valve, it's their product, they'll know best, they are the contract partner to ask. That's just logical.

 

[3 EMS]

Thats an opinion. Actually I was thinking more along the lines of abandoning the CIV V forum until the game comes out. Then checking back to see how awesome it is. Until then I'll stick with III and IV.

 

[Tylerryan79]

If we have a question about steam, ask valve? So what's the point of the steam FAQ? Greg opened the door when he posted that thread, and now they are quietly trying to shut it. Atleast shut out questions they can't/won't want to answer. Ie what info does it collect etc. I never thought it would be answered, but some people think it's only fair.

 

[The_J]

Thats an opinion. Actually I was thinking more along the lines of abandoning the CIV V forum until the game comes out. Then checking back to see how awesome it is. Until then I'll stick with III and IV.

This is probably the most reasonable post in this whole forum here.

If we have a question about steam, ask valve? So what's the point of the steam FAQ? Greg opened the door when he posted that thread, and now they are quietly trying to shut it. Atleast shut out questions they can't/won't want to answer. Ie what info does it collect etc. I never thought it would be answered, but some people think it's only fair.

The FAQ should sure only be an overview, including the Steam Civ features like the mod browser, not an in depth look at the guts of Steam, and that's what some people request here.
No one knows, what data Steam collects, besides Valve. Greg doesn't, 2K doesn't, all the other companies don't know that. You can only ask Valve for that. That's what you should think about. There are questions, which can't be answered here. There are a lot which can, but not all. For these, you have to ask Valve.

 

[2K Greg]

If we have a question about steam, ask valve? So what's the point of the steam FAQ? Greg opened the door when he posted that thread, and now they are quietly trying to shut it. Atleast shut out questions they can't/won't want to answer. Ie what info does it collect etc. I never thought it would be answered, but some people think it's only fair.

I only said to ask Valve if you have a question about the specifics of the SSU or Valve's future plans. The vast majority of the questions are not about those things, and the answers to them are still coming.

Edit: The_J beat me too it

 

[Tylerryan79]

I apologize Greg, I hadn't read what you wrote, only what was said here. Like I said though, some people do expect all to be revealed, and most likely are in for a surprise. I'd even go as far as saying many here wish that a lot of the more specific buisness related questions aren't answered, so they have more fuel for the fire. I am not one of these people. However I do not blame those honest few who truly hope/think the truth is coming soon. Bless their hearts!

Edit: Im not going to ask valve anything. I'd love to know the answers tithe harder questions, but I suspect I'd only be pointed to the privacy policy and user agreements. Also I'm too lazy

 

[PieceOfMind]

And did you have a suggestion, Greg, for the best way to contact Valve about this?

trineas suggested emailing someone on the list at http://www.valvesoftware.com/company/people.html
(who would be the best person to contact?)

Rebel44 suggested creating a Steam support ticket. I'm not sure how to do this.


@The_J
Yes, any of the data collection that is done without Firaxis or 2K involvement (for example, I suspect the measurements of play time are something done by Steam alone and not the game) it would be reasonable to be passed on to Valve to ask for details. However if there's any data collection done through the game (e.g. seeing which leaders get picked the most, or seeing which civs get added to the DLC purchase cart in-game) then it would be reasonable to expect Firaxis or 2K to shed some light on it. It's fair to say at this point because we know very little of the game that we don't know if 2K have anything they should reveal so I can agree with you in that sense.

All said, if Steam is a contract partner, why would it be unreasonable to ask 2K to ask Valve to provide details on what data is collected about Steam users playing civ5? It would make it easy for potential civ5 buyers if there was an official statement from 2K about what the data collection implies. I will contact Valve about it once I know the best way to do it and hopefully I'll get a response that is adequate for the people who've been enquiring about it on civfanatics. If it's not adequate and it becomes clear that Valve are unwilling to be helpful, it would be nice if 2K could advocate (is that the right word?) for us.

 

[Tylerryan79]

@peice of mind

I think the FAQ seemed like a reach out to many in the community from 2k about the fears that people had. It may well have been. After many posters have asked these difficult questions, I'd assume this would be enough for 2k to advocate for us, as you put it. If they expect users to ask valve themselves that's pretty much them saying they are through with that question, next. My only problem is that. Either be straight and call it like it is, or answer the question. Saying it's not our department isn't right, especially after opening the door. If however they truly can't find out, then say so. Don't tell users to waste their time on something a huge company should have a easier time doing. 2k can call and talk to people at valve, a user on this site can't.

Hey Greg, hook a brother up with a podcast or community feature before bed, thanks for the iPhone love to!

 

[White Elk]

I only said to ask Valve if you have a question about the specifics of the SSU or Valve's future plans. The vast majority of the questions are not about those things, and the answers to them are still coming.

Good to hear. I think the majority of Steamworks questions relate directly to its use in Civ5, and are best answered by Firaxis.
The minority of questions deal with Valve specific issues.

But I think it would be helpful to include those Valve domain questions within the FAQ. Provide an unbiased summary of what Valve has already provided. Provide links for more information. Include a contact link to query Valve directly. 2k then washes their hands of that. Civers can ask no more from 2k on that front.

All said, if Steam is a contract partner, why would it be unreasonable to ask 2K to ask Valve to provide details on what data is collected about Steam users playing civ5? It would make it easy for potential civ5 buyers if there was an official statement from 2K about what the data collection implies.

I agree with this 100%!! 2k outta declare what data Valve provides them with. I don't hold my breath that they will. But I do think it right and proper (and perhaps it should be required by law if it isn't already). Valve provides its Steamworks using clients with user data. That data should be made known. Since Valve may make different arrangements with different clients, I think it makes sense for 2k to report what user data they receive.

 

[ArcadicGamer]

Good to hear. I think the majority of Steamworks questions relate directly to its use in Civ5, and are best answered by Firaxis.
The minority of questions deal with Valve specific issues.

But I think it would be helpful to include those Valve domain questions within the FAQ. Provide an unbiased summary of what Valve has already provided. Provide links for more information. Include a contact link to query Valve directly. 2k then washes their hands of that. Civers can ask no more from 2k on that front.


I agree with this 100%!! 2k outta declare what data Valve provides them with. I don't hold my breath that they will. But I do think it right and proper (and perhaps it should be required by law if it isn't already). Valve provides its Steamworks using clients with user data. That data should be made known. Since Valve may make different arrangements with different clients, I think it makes sense for 2k to report what user data they receive.

A lot of what you want isn't really quantifable. Valve's data collection is a tool that they don't make public, but instead have used with MUCH success internally. Vavle's game are the summary of that. I've played CounterStrike:Source since its launch, and it went through a typical game cycle. Buggy, good, crashy, almost perfect. The most notable difference is how its implemented vs. say Civ4. Small planned STEAMBASED patches keep bandwidth needs down, vs distributing a larger patch to every fileshare site on the net.

Whatever data is collected in CIV5 will be up to 2k and Fireaxis to use properly. You can be upset that data is collected, but who's to say fanatics isn't collecting data about you? I would be more upset if the data collected does not get used by Fireaxis to properly fix their product and update it accordingly. The data that is collected is in the user agreement for STEAM, so asking 2k or STEAM what they collect isn't needed. You can research it yourself. As a long time user of STEAM, i can tell you that i've never had any issue with personal security, password hacks, spam email or anything that might be associated with the collection of data. But personal experiences are not real data.

As for STEAM's store, its been noted at least 50 times that you can customize it to suit your needs. You can have STEAM boot to the games tab, and disable the sales popups that happen when you launch STEAM or close a game. (once a week usually.) Don't kid yourself, Stardocks app does similar things. I'm sure a visit to any support forum would yield similar results as STEAMs, because who goes to the support forums except to complain and get support? At least they provide a place to research their product for you, and not have you scouring random internet boards for broken a scewed answers.

 

[Dargoth]

Ive got a question about maps

Will there be an Earthmap included in Civ5? If so what scale will it be?

Are the maps in civ5 bigger than those found in civ4 the new civ5 rule would create problems if there not. For example if you played civ5 on the Huge Earth map that is used in civ4 it would be possible to attack Havana from Miami with an Archery unit as the gap between Miami and cuba is only 1 square of water and an archery unit can shoot 2 squares... (the same thing can happen between Dover and Calais)

 

[edpovi]

... But I think Stardocks got it right. They develop their games with actual interaction with the fans. No guessing. No data mining and demographics. They ask, we give, they build, we buy.

I think Stardocks makes some fine games, but I think you over estimate the value of information gathered from forum communities. They represent a small, if vocal, subset of the gaming community. A community such as this can certainly provide useful comments and support to developers and fans, but it should not be the sole input or considerered even remotely representitive.

I would hope that Stardocks has a strong and viable market research department to guide the development and marketing of their products. Most successful companies use market research (data mining) and demographics to create business plans.

I own Impulse/Stardock games and Steam/Value games. They are both similar in many respects. I agree that Impulse is a bit less intrusive than Steamworks, so I understand the preference, but I don't agree that Steamworks should as vilified as you suggest. They have many happy customers.

You also mentioned that Civ is a niche game, but Civ IV is one of the best selling PC games, it sells MANY more copies than most PC games.

The data that Steam gathers is VERY valuable for developers. They are under no obligation to publish this information for free. You might be surprised just how much companies pay for access to market demographic data.

 

[tom2050]

Well, to be honest, Steam is like a saint right now when it comes to data collection compared to Facebook for example, who owns everything you place on there forever; and changed their policy in secret to let them use (or something like that; but had to revert that once people caught on to it), but will with no doubt try again and IMO eventually will succeed.

This doesn't mean I will roll the red carpet out for them though But I guess I will have to in order to play Civ 5.

 

[12agnar0k]

Ive got a question about maps

Will there be an Earthmap included in Civ5? If so what scale will it be?

Are the maps in civ5 bigger than those found in civ4 the new civ5 rule would create problems if there not. For example if you played civ5 on the Huge Earth map that is used in civ4 it would be possible to attack Havana from Miami with an Archery unit as the gap between Miami and cuba is only 1 square of water and an archery unit can shoot 2 squares... (the same thing can happen between Dover and Calais)

I believe Elizabeth said their will be three map types released with vanilla, (I would guess, pangea/continents/archpilaego or something similar), No doubt Map makers will create an Earth Map that you can download and add into your map types folder, along with others being released in mods and patches.

As for size I believe it will still vary from tiny to gigantic, but whether or not they will be any bigger at the largest size than civ4's BTS largest offical map size, then i'm not sure, I would guess its not likely.

As for an archer firing from dover to calais, we built coastal cannons to reach the other side of the channel during WW2 didnt we?

 

[tom2050]

As for an archer firing from dover to calais, we built coastal cannons to reach the other side of the channel during WW2 didnt we?

Well, if your talking about the huge guns like this:

I don't know if an archer falls into this category

 

[12agnar0k]

Yeah, the costal guns, I'm fairly sure I remember atleast one was so big it could cross the channel and bombarb the other land mass... its the same thing as an archer having a really powerful bow . Have 10,000 men to pull back the string of a giant longbow, job done :O