Now THIS is a bad start!

Gah! I've been trying to find out how to get to those screens forever! Do you mind telling me how to get to them?

Also, this talk of getting the Iroquois to declare war on you and spying on their cities has made me wonder...If you botch a spy mission on the AI and the AI goes to war with you, do they get the war happiness or start right in on war weariness? I mean, they declared war on you, but your spying might be considered a military action.
 
Hi!
For the screens, use the function keys F1-F11. About your question: it may seem counterintuitive, but it's only who declares war that counts. It doesn't matter why. So if i spy on them, the mission fails and Bob is so pissed that he declares on me, it's me who get the war happiness bonus, and Bob starts immediately to collect war weariness points from me :D
 
@Aegis just run throuhg your F keys. F7-F12 have those screens, which is which I don't know right off the top of my head. F8 is histograph I think, and f10 should be top 5 cities or demograhpics. I dunno.

@Tricky You could always go and take Abe out. That way you have two cities as footholds in the New World, and if he signs an alliance with Bob, He gets WW from declaring, right? Or doesn't that work for alliances that way? Plus you get all those shiny gold pieces too
 
I think getting caught stealing Steam Power by Bob will get you both things you want: The tech plus him declaring war on you. So just spend the minimum it takes to steal the tech and you should get caught. Plus it will save you a ton of money.

And I agree to get rid of Abe. Get you a foothold should this invasion fail and if the invasion is successfull then you have more tiles toward the domination win and won't have to take as many cities from Bob.
 
I think it would be a bad idea to get rid of Abe until after the Iroquis are on their last limb, you can still exploit him to target scientific research. He may not give you Steam Power but there are other techs he will be willing to trade.. You may still use him for extra science advances. It would be beneficial to know what your trade details are, when your current deals expire and whether you could throw some nuggets of friendship his way to improve his attitude.

Let's face facts. Abe can research independently and is no longer a security threat. He is a science asset, allowing you to divert your science towards fields he is not researching and trading them. If he is researching slower than you or not, you are able to research an entirely different branch and trade for those essential ones. You may have to trade 3 techs for one. All and all, it would be foolish to get rid of Abe, especially because he appears to be the superior scientific researcher in our current batch of comps and is not a security threat.

In fact, you may want to 'empower' Abe to fight the Iroquis for you. After you take the Iroquis dye, Abe will be very likely to join with you in an alliance if you position enough units on Iroquis territory.

Also, its very likely that Abe got the 3000 from the Iroqois for Steam Power. Abe is obviously going to make this deal. Iroqois are on his border and much larger. He is going to be less friendly towards you because collaboration with you will make the Iroqois upset towards Abe. Give the Iroqois a nice kick in the ass, show that you are superior and "friendlier" (hahaha!) and Abe will join in your campaign and help divert Iroqois forces.
 
Taking out Abe will get you more than leaving him intact I believe. worse case, you buy steam power from him and then steamroll his cities for a quick refund. Or reduce him to a city-state again by taking his capital.
 
Hi y'all, fellow posters and lurkers :cool: Lots of debate around, let's solve something, from the easy to the difficult:

Propaganda: nope. No Espionage tech yet, and probably it will never be discovered. I'm "spying" with the diplomats.

Alliance with Abe: i'm dubious it will help, considering how much the AS suck at conducing sea-driven assaults. Probably Bob would send 2 or 3 mounted units and no more. A completely different situation would be if America and Iroquois shared a land border.

Spying on Bob: a failed espionage mission would be ideal to lure him into declaring first. But... a tech steal is too expensive: 1150 gold for an immediate spying. I would prefer to steal world maps: 150 gold and even if i succeed (my goal is to fail!) i can repeat the espionage without going broke.

Capturing America: good idea, but doing it immediately would delay the invasion of Iroquois, thus raising the risk to have them acquire Communism. A delayed invasion on America can be a viable option, once reiforcements are arrived and 2 extra galleons are available. I don't care about Steam Power, but those 3500 (yes!) golds would be a fine addition to my coffers.

I'm thinking of attacking the 2 southern cities of Oka and Kahnawake as well. Domination count would benefit of that. Other cities are still size 1 without culture, so it's better to leave them alone for now.

Finally, a correction: in a previous update, i have estimated 7 turns for the landing, 3 for having the necessary galleons ready and 4 for reaching the New World. However, turn 3, in which galleons are ready, can be used to move the ships, and so the turn count is reduced by 1. 6 turns, not 7. But... there's a surprise. I've managed to... you'll read it in the upcoming update.
 
No way in hades is Abe going to have 3000 gold long enough for you to take it. Comp spends that **** like crazy. I'll be suprised if its still above 0 after 2 or 3 turns.

Capturing America is a terrible idea it will drive the campaign out too long, Iroqois will get communism. Lets face it, Abe is not going for communist tech. There's no danger in him trading that to the Iroqois. The current goal here is to have an alliance with Abe for scientific purposes. Why do you ask? Its really quite simple, Abe is more than likely going for industrialization now. In the meantime, you need to be researching towards replaceable parts. Iroqois, dumb bastards that they are are going to be overlapping Abe in his scientific research. They've had Nationalism for a long time now, Communism is going to hit any turn now. You need to take them out fast, one thing's a fact though, when he does, Abe will take a more hostile attitude towards him. Communism is the shunned government of the Americans.

Once you attack, Abe becomes your scientific trading partner. Allowing you to streamline your way towards Replaceable Parts. If you have a productive city, you may want to set it to build a palace and go for Darwin's Voyage. It will give you that many more techs to trade to Abe, and when you start your war with the Iroqois you and Abe go in a trade embargo against them.

Either way, Abe is your asset and taking America is a stupid mistake. All it does is eliminate your advantage.

1. Station troops on land.
2. Enter Trade Embargo with Abe
3. Research towards replaceable parts.
4. Pre-build Palace for Scientific Method
5. Finish Darwin's voyage (use it to get to Electronics)
6. Finish Hoover Dam

Abe is going for industrialization, afterwards it'll be corporation, refining, and steel. You and Bob are going to be sharing industrialization.

However, by this time you'll be a few techs ahead of Bob. Abe will gladly trade for some tech and maybe some gpt. Use the extra production from the Hoover Dam to flood a new wave of troops into Iroqois territory.

In the final analysis, capturing America will make your campaign twice as long and doom your initial invasion attempt. You'll be slaughtered and bombarded, and by the time you're ready for a second try, Iroqois will have Flight.

You're not spending jack on science, you can't afford the science loss otherwise Iroqois are going to storm over you. Your initial invasion will most likely fail. You need to gain Abe's confidence as a preferred trading partner so you can keep up in the tech race. If you do not you will have to start investing huge sums into your science and you don't have the infrastructure to compete with those Top 5 largest cities. Keep Abe and your other buddies and do what you can to use these (science research stations) in a trade embargo against Iroqois.

When you take the dyes the remaining AI are going to lump onto your side. Give them all the techs they want in return for trade embargo. Use them as your research stations and keep that trade embargo on. Abe and Iroqois will become enemies soon when Bob goes communist. Don't worry about it.
 
Impressive analysis kenScott, considering the scarce info at your avail (screenshots and some description by mine). BTW, you probably are too pessimistic, or i'm too optimistic. I don't think that the technology run will be an issue, unless i screw up with the invasion. But i'll leave the agreement with Abe as a "plan B" in the case i find myself unable to wage the invasion on the iroquois land as i'm willing to do. A deity superpower, although broken, is not to be taken lightly.

The tech pace is quite slow now. It tooks a huge load of turns for America and Iroquois to master Steam Power. And i don't think that things are going to change. Bob is quite broken, and Abe cannot spend more than 100% of its income per turn in science, even with 3500 bucks in his coffers.

I agree with you that Abe is better left alone for now. But in a few turns after the invasion begins, those tiles owned by him can help in reach the domination limit, thus an assimilation of America is not to be excluded, even if in the long run it would be better to keep it as a possible source of science. There are good chances that the game will be decided in the short run.

About moving the Palace, this time i disagree. I have a good core territory that is cranking up units at full efficience, and moving the palace would wreak havoc on those productive cities. So it's better to leave the capital where it is now and deal with possible flips in the usual way.

Thanks for the continue interest you're showing in this story. Your point of view is always useful. Keep reading!

-------------------------------------------------

1375AD - The attack begins

Next turn, 9 galleons will be ready at full movement. But now, 7 of them are ready at least at 4/5 movement points, enough to reach the invasion point in 4 turns.

It's worth the money to spy on Persepolis again: 1 veteran cavalry, 1 regular knight, 1 veteran pike and 2 spears, a regular and an elite. And 3 ships: 2 frigates and 1 galley. But the rest of the picture is even more revealing:

The city is still starving. It will be size 3 on arrival, and 2 after conquest. It has 120 culture points, but no cultural improvement available. Bob is really broke. He's already sold all the improvements in the city, and there's the possibility that some of the defenders will be sold as well. Amazingly, Bob isn't using the luxury slider. He's still spending 30% of its deficitary bugdet in research, and the rest is going into cash.

Here's the shot of the investigation on Persepolis:

tR1ckyBS034.jpg


Now let's investigate Pasagardae: 1 cavalry (veteran), 1 rifleman and 1 pikeman (both regular). And absolutely no culture. They didn't even manage to build a cultural improvement. But barracks and a courthouse are in the town. They would be useful for me once the city is captured.

Probably, i must expect 1 drafted rifleman extra in both the cities. They'll have 1 turn for reinforcing before the attack on the two cities take place. While still in Republic Bob can draft 1 unit each turn. Although drafting would put those 2 cities in civil disorder, my troops should be prepared for the worst case.

Seven galleons. 28 units. Likely enough to conquer those 2 lousy towns anyway. I'm sending 4 galleons toward Pasagardae and 3 toward Persepolis. The landing sites are very close each other, and an excess cavalry force outside a city can be employed to strike at the other city as well. What i really need is to define the right number of slow troops.

Pasagardae: there's the need to withstand a probable initial skirmish by the Iroquois. 6 rifleman and 4 cannons.

Persepolis: those 2 attackers are a little worrysome, but 2 riflemen should be enough to resist to them. 4 cannons will be deployed there as well.

Free slot remaining: 12. They'll be filled with cavalry units. Two stacks of 6 units, one for Persepolis and one for Pasagardae, with the option to come in aid of the other stack if necessary.

Two other galleons can sail for Persepolis and Pasagardae next turn. They would arrive when the cities are already conquered, and unload the troops directly into them. 8 more units with full movement available (probably the 2 combat settlers + 6 units).

Before taking a definitive decision, i deal with the non-critical tasks. Slaves are sent to work, production is checked in the cities. Taking into account a possible invasion on Oka and Kahnawake, i set Roma and Memphis to build 2 extra galleons. Remola and Thebes will train 1 extra rifleman each. Cavalries will come from the north.

Now the last issue of this turn: the trade treaty with the Iroquois has just expired. I'm giving them wines, spices and 2gpt in return for incense. I could negate Bob those 2 vital luxuries now and, perhaps, give him the lethal blow, but i prefer not, for the moment. An immediate denial could bring a general state of civil disorder, and this could trigger that moron into holding a revolution and switch to Monarchy. My troops would have to face a monarchic Iroquois nation, and this means 2 drafted riflemen each turn instead of 1, not counting the end of war weariness. Better keep this supply alive... strange situation :crazyeye:

The die is cast. Galleons are loaded with units and sent east, escorted by frigates. That idiot of Bob is still toying with that clowny war with Persia, but the true war has just begun.

Amazingly, the preparation has been quite short. Only 18 turns have passed since the end of the war with America, and in the meantime i disposed of the last Aztec settlement and assimilated the Greek city-state, which i donated to Persia later. In 1320 (11 turns ago) i estimated 60 turns to reach the domination limit, and i was wondering if it was an optimistic view.

The image: the roman fleet with its lethal cargo has just set the sails toward the Iroquois land, with "mixed" feelings...

tR1ckyBS035.jpg
 
Just a thought...why invade their homeland at all? Take out those colonies to the south, they won't be able to rush sufficient troops down there in time, and it's easier to take out all their cities there in one fell swoop, and get rid of the culture problems you'll have in the colonies. From there, you can move in troops and stage an invasion of their homeland, plus you may deny Bob some good resources or something. Worst case, you move his number of production centers down by 8 (or about there, it's hard to see on that map). This also will give him war weariness.

One second thought, perhaps an attack and hold maneuver on those two cities on their mainland followed by an attack and conquer maneuver on their colonies. Worst case, you loose some troops, best case, you're 100+ tiles closer to world domination, Pinky.
 
Keep the sea-chain intact and you'll probably be fine. He's still at war so he's producing military units. Chances are, he's started a naval fleet to chase down the Persians. There's risk you could lose a few links in your ocean chain. If he has developed a good rail infrastructure you will need to resort to my strategy. Your invasion will fail depending on his rails. Thats on you though, once you get his territory / world map you'll be able to make a better decision. Rail development will be the determining factor and since he has the technology he's already been on the job for a few turns.

That is the source of my 'pessimism'

I'm used to multiplayer so if this were a human I was playing I wouldn't attack without the Abe strategy. Those rails would be the death of an invasion of this particular magnitude. Remember, he is still at war, he's been producing military this whole time even though he's got no one to fight with them. This is going to be ugly. Go with the Abe strategy. Either way you'll win in the longrun.
 
its amazing how this thread started as a do i have a chance thread but has become how should i take over the world thread
 
I'm playing the Persians right now, so seeing my proud and mighty capital in such a sorry state brings a tear to my eye. Maybe they'll respond a little better to some Roman 'tough love.' I've never seen a Colossus city in such bad shape either. Mine would usually be bringing me 100+ g by now. Are those Persians or Iriquois in those 2 towns? I would think the Persians would be much less likely to flip, although once both cities are taken and forts are in place the risk should be pretty low regardless.

I think your invasion plan looks alright. As long as you can hold off the counterattack for a few turns while you move supporting troops into the area, you should be alright. Just be patient and let enough reinforcements arrive before you go on the offensive again. Once you can reach that critical mass on the new continent, I think everything will start flowing and you'll conquer new cities quickly.

BTW, nice article. It's always fun to watch someone else's game. I find I learn something new almost every time I do.
 
other factors to consider:

your continent is without rails. It will take you a long time to transfer units from one side to the other to load up your ships after this invasion. The second 'wave' will come slowly giving him more than enough time to prepare. By then, you'll have an even larger rail system to worry about and the computer will have Communism soon enough and will then head straight for Industrialism. When that happens, you'll be fine for a little while but he's obviously getting a lot of GPT if he can trade 3000 for Steam Power. He'll rush those factories and you'll be in serious trouble. You're in the Industrial Age now. Its time to rethink the variables. You're still strategizing a Medieval War.

you won't have rails for a very long time. You never should have been researching rails with Abe doing it. You should be working on techs to trade. I've been playing this game for almost 11 years. This invasion is going to flop because your second wave is going to be way too far behind and too scarce. You may take the city, but they're going to take it right back within a few turns and you'll be left waaay behind in the tech race.

Best thing to do is take the city and dyes and trade'em to Abe to get a leg up on the tech race. Your objective right now needs to be those Replaceable Parts. The computer has cannons too. He has the defense advantage, and likely, a lot more riflemen and cavalry that will move freely about with the rails he'll have up by the time you get your ship-chain in place.

Take city, trade with Abe, put Iroqois in trade embargo and use Abe to catch up in the tech race. Rails have ruined this invasion and you are needlessly sacrificing brave Roman soldiers.
 
:cool: REPLY TIME :cool:

dresdor: in one word: speed.
I've thought about not invading the mainland and grabbing the small colonies instead, but discarded the idea. The tiles conquered wouldn't be enough to reach the domination limit (not in a reasonable time, at least) so i'll have to invade the mainland anyway. But at this point i would have lost the surprise effect and wasted several turns. And in the meantime, i would have left to Bob an occasion to build a rail line or switch to monarchy or sign peace with Persia and reinforce itself etc...
By attacking directly the mainland i maximize the damage and minimize the time factor. A successive invasion of the southern colonies is viable, i set Roma and the southern towns to build 2 extra galleons and riflemen exactly for that purpose, but the first strike must be delivered on the mainland and must be as devastating as possible.

kenScott: man, i sincerely hope you're wrong in predicting the failure of my invasion! :D
Now, if the Iroquois were led by a human player you would be right in everything you say. But the Iroquois are an AS, and quite dumb. To say one, they're stuck in a useless war with Persia in which they're losing an awesome amount of shields, money and research potential every turn. They're also losing population, buildings and units due to the deficit of their budget. Probably they're becoming weaker every turn rather than stronger. Another thing to say is that there's no sign of railroads in the iroquois land yet. And yes, my maps are updated.

It's obvious that, if i was facing a human opponent, i would be in deep trouble. My primary concern would be to acquire Steam Power ASAP and build a rail link between cities as quick as possible, because i would have to face the threat of a massive iroquois invasion on my mainland. In this scenario, a Roman invasion would be absolutely out of question, because 1) they would have already built their rail infrastructure and 2) no matter how big would be my stack, it would be an easy prey to their (estimated for a human player) 50+ cavalries and 50+ cannons.

Being Bob of the Iroquois an AS instead, my best option is to strike him hard and fast before he has a chance to 1) get rid of war weariness 2) build a rail line 3) crank up the military and 4) discover Communism. If i delay the invasion, i risk to face a way stronger opponent later.

But the "rail problem" is something not to be underestimated. I intend to buy a world map from the Iroquois just before attacking. If there are rails connecting lots of cities, including the "target" ones, i can always order my fleet to sit idle in waters and wait a pair of turns for reinforcements.

About my territory, you're right when you say that my lack of rails is a threat to a proper reinforcement supply. But my production of slow units is concentrated in a few core cities not too distant from Texoco, and i still have an half-functional communication line to speed up troop delivering. I can run short of riflemen, but i have the money to rush a lot of them.

And finally, even if i disagree with how you view things, i'm not snubbing your concerns. If something goes wrong i still have the option of attacking the colonies and team up with the americans. The invasion is not risk-free at all, but in my opinion it's a risk worth the possible reward: a fast domination victory.

general_kill: consider that my first thought was something like "what a crappy start, what i am supposed to do cornered here? better reload..." :rolleyes:

Grogs: yes, poor Persepolis! The moronic Iroquois administration is hitting it hard, its citizens would live quite better under the rule of the Roman Crown. Alas, those citizens in Persepolis are Iroquois, at least the 3 productive ones (can't say anything on the clowns).
And, of course, thanks for appreciating my game log! Keep lurking, the decisive phase is coming!
 
hmm... one reason he is losing population is because he has been building workers for the rails, not just on starvation. You are going to see a lot of rails popping up soon.

War weariness slows growth and a war with you may give him an incentive to end the war with Persia. That's going to give him a huge bonus. I agree with your analysis regarding the effect of the weariness, I contributed to that analysis and agree with it completely.

Mine was perhaps a bit hasty. We don't even know if he has coal yet.

However, I've noticed that a computer will fight a weak computer opponent almost as if it were a superpower. He's been building up forces, he wants to chase down that last city. He's got a navy, enough to potential divert and disrupt your chain. You need to attack fast, your reinforcments will be slow. Each turn, his will get faster. (if he has a coal supply, highly likely since he's on a large map.) In fact, the only delay in his rails may have been he had to build the road to the coal. That project will be completed very soon.

There is one huge potential problem that could possibly spell an early modern defeat for Rome. What if the next time you hit turn you read "Persia and Iroqois have signed a peace treaty." ?? You'll need Abe, but you won't have the power to convince him to trade with you and risk the wrath of Bob.

Rome may stretch forces too thin with this invasion. Reason: The two forts you plan to build will require defenses. One city could be well fortified, three... you'll have to spread out the forces you used to take the one between them.

It will all come down to the railroad system. We had plenty of unexpected occurances earlier in the game regarding inter-civ relations regarding war & peace. What are you going to do to insure that Bob and Mario remain at war?

Lets try and keep those down to a minimum this time.

Uh-oh, Persepolis shows there is coal.
 
Maybe the turn after Bob declares, have an alliance formed between Persia and Rome?


With something like spare resources, luxuries, and gpt as incentives to keep Mario in the fight.
 
I see that Persepolis has coal in its window. Make it fast, in a slow tech game your frigates are now obsolete. And will soon become easy pickings for his ironclads.
 
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