Nubia First Look

[nzcamel]

Victoria is popularly remembered as being quite hefty.
Fat people in antiquity were probably quite rare, particularly in the desert. Even for a queen.

This is a very modern African-American (negative) stereotype

The older version of Victoria that we are more familiar with was featured in CIV. Of course since then historical dramas have been popping up all over the show at an impressive rate; and we've had both a very well done TV series and a feature film about the 'young' Victoria. It makes sense that Civilization taps into that existing market.

 

[Stringer1313]

I'm super happy with their decision to make her full-figured, and generally happy with the diversity of presentation in the female rulers, which hopefully one day match the diversity of presentation of the male rulers. Only Cleopatra is overtly sexy, and that's an intentional part of her personality.

 

[Zaarin]

The older version of Victoria that we are more familiar with was featured in CIV. Of course since then historical dramas have been popping up all over the show at an impressive rate; and we've had both a very well done TV series and a feature film about the 'young' Victoria. It makes sense that Civilization taps into that existing market.

People tend to think of Victory as old and dowdy and Elizabeth I as young and vigorous. Given that we have young and perky Victoria, if Elizabeth I returns I hope we get the melancholy and moody older Elizabeth, perhaps based on the Rainbow Portrait.

 

[MooFreaky]

The title was just a term for royal women. Many Kandake were warriors and/or queens but simply having the title does not make them one.

Actually the title Kandake implies both warrior and leader. Just like Roman terms like Consul and Augustus implied military leadership in the Republican & early to late-mid (even quite late) Imperial period respectively, or Pharaoh during virtually all of Egyptian times. There will always be exceptions, but someone in said role is expected to be militaristic.
Also evidence we have uses phrases that translate to "the Kandake" meaning it's very unlikely to have been a general term used for generic royal women. That concept is often confused because it could be held by several women at once, such as the current Queen and the Queen-Mother.

As to an earlier comment about Amanitore not being depicted as a warrior-queen... is there a reason you are excluding the monuments depicting her in armour, wielding weapons and slaying the enemies of Nubia?

People tend to think of Victory as old and dowdy and Elizabeth I as young and vigorous. Given that we have young and perky Victoria, if Elizabeth I returns I hope we get the melancholy and moody older Elizabeth, perhaps based on the Rainbow Portrait.

Personally I think the old, moody Liz really suits her. The stubborn, old, "virgin" queen that spent her entire life on the throne who was grimmer and understood that it was her duty to give her life to the throne and to England. The young, chipper Liz we've seen doesn't reflect that so much.

 

[Liufeng]

What are your proposals for a civ in south Africa?

As I have a little knowledge on subsaharian african civs (while not being an expert), there are 2 important civs that come into my mind to cover the South african region (although the second one is a bit of cheating).

First, it is Zimbabwe (where Great Zimbabwe is at). The problem with the "Great Zimbabwe" civ itself, is that we do not know much about them. However, we happen to have plenty of information on their successors : the Mutapa empire, followed by the Rozwi empire. Although at some point the two empires were enemies (the Rozwi empire overtaking Mutapa, and the latter retaking the Rozwi after Changamire Dombo's death), they ruled over the same land, just like Mali and Songhai. However, unlike Mali and Songhai, whose people are made of mandinka for the first and of songhai for the second (language and culture are very different), both Mutapa and the short-lived Rozwi were Shona in their culture and language, just like the builders of Great Zimbabwe. That's why I don't mind combining them (Great Zimbabwe, Mutapa and Rozwi) in a Zimbabwean civ, led either by Nyatsimba Mutota (with boni towards luxury resources and cities foundation) or Changamire Dombo (with boni towards conquest and building).

The second one is a bit different, as it is on "South Africa", but not on the Mainland. I'm talking about Madagascar. What is interesting about them is that it's a civilization on its whose history become very interesting from the modern times (in the historical sense of the word). It's main kingdoms started to form from the XVIIth century, with the Merina kingdom being the most important of them (and in a way, the final victor). Of course, the leader choice is rather obvious : Ranavalona I, who fought (and succeded during her lifetime) to repel european to control the kingdom.

If you wish to know a little bit more on the subject, I suggest to read the articles I'll add in here (although on Madagascar, they're both in french ...)
Also, for Madagascar, a very good read is Madagascar : a short history, by Solofo Randrianja And Stephen Ellis.

 

[KayAU]

So, since Nubia is supposed to be Egypt's rival, and have some similarities in the types of advantages they get and terrain they like, let's compare them:

UPDATE: With the newly released patch, the Maryannu got a much needed boost (+2 strength, +2 ranged strength, -20 production cost). I have updated the analysis below accordingly. I have used italics to highlight the bits I have changed.

Unique units: Maryannu Chariot Archer versus Pitati Archer

Unlocks with: The Wheel, 105 science into the tree (Maryannu) versus Archery, 75 science into the tree (Pitati). Both these are near the beginning of the research tree, so no major difference in availability.
Cost: 120 production (Maryannu) versus 70 production (Pitati). Even after the patch, this is still a big deal. With Nubia's production bonus for ranged units, they can build about 2.6 units in the time Egypt can build 1.
Strength: 35 ranged, 25 melee versus 30 ranged, 17 melee. The Maryannu has a decent strength edge here, with a ranged strength equal to that of a crossbowman, but earlier in the game, and significantly stronger melee defence. This is made less significant by the fact that Nubians can upgrade their archers more quickly.
Attack range: 2 versus 2
Movement: 2, 4 if starting in open terrain versus 3. So, this one depends on the terrain, but in most cases, I would take a flat 3 over a situational 2 or 4.
Upkeep: 2 gold vs 1 gold. In the base case, you can pay for 2 Nubian archers for each Maryannu. However, if you use the very popular policy which reduces maintenance by 1 gold, the archers have no upkeep, while the chariot archers still cost 1 gold.
Upgrades to: Crossbowman versus Crossbowman
Other:
* Nubian archers synergize with Nubia's UA, giving 50% more experience for ranged units
* Nubian archers upgrade from Slingers, while the chariot archers need to be built from scratch
* Maryannu Chariot Archer replaces the Heavy Chariot, which is a far less expensive melee unit that upgrades to Knight. Losing this early cavalry melee unit may hurt more than what is gained by having access to the Maryannu.

Overall, this is a very clear victory for Nubia.


Unique infrastructure: Sphinx versus Nubian Pyramid

Unlocks with: Craftsmanship, 60 culture into the culture tree versus Masonry, 105 science into the science tree. I'm guessing most of the time, you will get to the Sphinx a bit earlier, although it is not a huge gap.
Base yield: 1 culture, 1 faith versus 1 faith
Additional yields: 2 faith if next to a wonder, 1 culture with Natural history versus 1 yield of any type depending on adjacent districts
Maximum yields: 3 faith, 2 culture versus 1 faith, 6 other yields of various types
Build restrictions: Any land terrain, not adjacent to other Sphinx versus desert terrain, can be adjacent to other pyramid
Other: Pyramid next to city center increases district build bonus from 20% to 40%

This one is less clear. The Sphinx has an advantage in that it is a source of early faith and culture, which is very useful to secure a pantheon and the better forms of government. The pyramid on the other hand, has much higher yield potentials, and I can see it being useful and interesting to build in various spots around the districts in a desert city. It also provides early faith. The district building bonus feels like it is somewhat separate from the tile improvement itself, but it makes the Nubian pyramid a must-build if you have a desert tile next to your city center. Overall, I personally like the pyramid better due to its higher yield potential, but if we don't consider the district build bonus, I think this would be a draw, perhaps a slight win for the Sphinx, since it can be built on any land terrain, and provides that important early game culture.

I'll call this a draw for the tile itself, I'll cover the district bonus separately.


Build-related ability: Iteru versus Kandake of Meroe

Iteru: 15% production bonus for building districts and wonders next to river, can build on floodplains
Kandake of Meroe: 20% production for building districts, 40% if there is a Nubian pyramid next to city center

This is another clear victory for Nubia. Egypt's bonus is either a bit smaller or much smaller, and only applies to to tiles adjacent to a river. There is a small advantage in that it applies to wonders, but in general, this is not the best use for your high-yield floodplains, and only occasionally for other river tiles. Nubia wins.


Other ability: Mediterranean's Bride versus Ta-Seti
Mediterranean's Bride: Plus 4 gold for trade routes to other civilizations. Trade routes to Egypt provide 2 gold, and give 2 food to the trading partner.
Ta-seti: 50% production towards Ranged units, 50% more experience for Ranged units. Plus 1 production for mines over strategic resources, plus 2 gold for mines over luxury or bonus resources.

Once again, Nubia beats Egypt very clearly. I usually prioritize internal trade routes for growth and development. As for incoming trade routes, I have no control over those, and it seems that they will be more beneficial to my trading partners and competing players, than to me. The Egyptian ability may make you a bit of extra gold, but you will have to prioritize foreign trade routes. The Nubian abilities, meanwhile, are universally good. You will always want to improve strategic and luxury resources. Bonus resources you may harvest or improve as you please, but Nubia has an extra incentive to improve them. On its own, I would have preferred this ability over Egypt's, and that is before we get to the part about Ranged units. Ranged units are important throughout the game, and especially in the early game. 50% production is very significant, and 50% experience is also very good. To make it all even better, this synergizes with the excellent unique unit, which can be built in about the same time as regular archers, and will level up quickly. Nubia wins.


So yeah, Nubia just seems vastly superior to Egypt. I know I'm not saying anything controversial here. Egypt is one of the weakest civs in the game, while Nubia, by the looks of it, is going to be one of the most powerful.

 

[Turrdy]

Build-related ability: Iteru versus Kandake of Meroe

Iteru: 15% production bonus for building districts and wonders next to river, can build on floodplains
Kandake of Meroe: 20% production for building districts, 40% if there is a Nubian pyramid next to city center

This is another clear victory for Nubia. Egypt's bonus is either a bit smaller or much smaller, and only applies to to tiles adjacent to a river. There is a small advantage in that it applies to wonders, but in general, this is not the best use for your high-yield floodplains, and only occasionally for other river tiles. Nubia wins.

whats the worth of a 40% bonus for a district, if you can't place it where you wanted to because there are floodplains? if you consider the start bias, which is desert for both, there will surely be flood plains too...
And if you settle somewhere without desert, there won't be a Nubian pyramid either. Rivers are way more common than deserts. And to be honest, i'll take 15% for districts and wonders over 20% for districts only.

 

[KayAU]

whats the worth of a 40% bonus for a district, if you can't place it where you wanted to because there are floodplains? if you consider the start bias, which is desert for both, there will surely be flood plains too...
And if you settle somewhere without desert, there won't be a Nubian pyramid either. Rivers are way more common than deserts. And to be honest, i'll take 15% for districts and wonders over 20% for districts only.

Usually, if there are floodplains, I want to use those for food, or as a good workable tile for a unique tile improvement which gives faith or culture. Putting a district or wonder on a tile which has a base yield of 3 food seems like not the best use of that tile. For desert or tundra adjacent cities, I tend to prefer using the desert and tundra for districts and wonders, and other tiles (like floodplains) for tile yields.

Even if you ignore the 40% bonus, I prefer a universal 20% district production bonus, because:
* You are probably going to build many more districts than wonders
* You are going to get the 20% bonus no matter where you place the district. So you don't need to use up fertile river tiles, and can place them wherever they are optimal.
That said, we shouldn't ignore the 40% bonus. Nubia will certainly have a start bias which means they can often get a pyramid next to the city center for many of their cities.

 

[KayAU]

Just some math, for those who are not inclined to do it themselves.

District build time with no bonus: 100%
District build time with 15% bonus: 86,96%
District build time with 20% bonus: 83,33%
District build time with 40% bonus: 71,43%

So these aren't massive bonuses. They are certainly useful, especially on slower game speeds, but it is not like the Aztec unique ability, which can build districts extremely quickly. Over the course of a game, though, you are going to save a lot of turns for producing other things.

 

[Wingednosering]

Sorry, my kid is in the hospital, so I am not following closely, but I would say package-updating is prep work for an early launch tomorrow.

Hope everything is alright. Our thoughts are with you Eagle!

-----------------------------------------------------------

Nubia is OP purely because their bonuses synergize so well.

As somebody else said, their archers really only have +1 movement over America's archers since you'll usually be fighting on your home continent that early in the game.

Having said that, Americas combat bonus alone puts them in a decent tier. When you add extra experience, bonus yields on mined resources and 20-40% faster district construction, how can you not be overpowered?

The game as it currently stands has an early reliance on archers and crippling production scaling for districts. Making a civ that plays right into both cannot be balanced properly.

If the strategy of the game was drastically altered, maybe Nubia would fall from grace. If the patch notes bring reduced district scaling and a nerf to archer rushes, then Nubia could be much more balanced.

 

[The Economy]

Where are my patch notes.

 

[anandus]

Sold all my Steam cards. My wallet is ready. You can release Nubia now, Firaxis

 

[MIS]

As somebody else said, their archers really only have +1 movement over America's archers since you'll usually be fighting on your home continent that early in the game.

Disagree. Archers can take over any non-wall cities. I use archer rush to take over cities across the globe. A continent is, on average, one other civ. I've taken cities from 3 other civs with archers. I play Deity, typically pangea domination.

 

[MIS]

Where are my patch notes.

I tried to start a thread asking this, but I didn't title it right and it got deleted. Maybe you'ld have better luck?

 

[V. Soma]

I belive we are to get patch notes today... at best in about 3 hours...

 

[Katakanja]

I tried to start a thread asking this, but I didn't title it right and it got deleted. Maybe you'ld have better luck?

It's also fairly unnecessary considering we have about three threads concerning DLC5/Nubia already, I don't think we need more just to ask where the patch notes are.

 

[MIS]

It's also fairly unnecessary considering we have about three threads concerning DLC5/Nubia already, I don't think we need more just to ask where the patch notes are.

Disagree. DLC05 is not patch notes. Patch notes affects everyone; DLC05 only those that purchase it. It's a completely different thing.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Disagree. DLC05 is not patch notes. Patch notes affects everyone; DLC05 only those that purchase it. It's a completely different thing.

When it appears, it will get its own sticky thread at the top. Look for that.

 

[Wingednosering]

Disagree. Archers can take over any non-wall cities. I use archer rush to take over cities across the globe. A continent is, on average, one other civ. I've taken cities from 3 other civs with archers. I play Deity, typically pangea domination.

On a small map, there are four continents typically. Those four continents hold six civs and a bunch of city states. You can probably conquer 1-2 city states and 1 AI before America's bonus loses its potency. By that time on Deity, walls are typically being built in my experience. If you spread the pain around more or get a crap map layout, then yeah, America won't equal Nubia in terms of CS.

 

[MIS]

On a small map, there are four continents typically. Those four continents hold six civs and a bunch of city states. You can probably conquer 1-2 city states and 1 AI before America's bonus loses its potency. By that time on Deity, walls are typically being built in my experience. If you spread the pain around more or get a crap map layout, then yeah, America won't equal Nubia in terms of CS.

You can capture cities without walls from all over the globe (on pangea). I'm not saying you can capture whole civs. An AI will often have a non-walled civ; perhaps they just settled it. Declare war, take the non-walled city, get a nice peace treaty.