Nuclear Power?

Should we build new nuclear power plants?


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fission is a useful energy solution but it needs to be less expensive or have faster time to start paying off the investment or we're not going to see more of it.

so "yes" if tech improves for fission otherwise probably not.

fusion has been around the corner for like 80 years now? maybe it's around the corner for another 80 too. feels like a pipe dream for the time being to get it to be cost effective/energy positive, but if it works then great. if
 
I think we could have stable, cheapish, coldish, scalable fusion power tomorrow and still run into issues because the problems are social, not technological.

All the incredible efficiency, storage and transmission gains in the past 2 decades, which have progressed beyond predictions of the time, have been used to power economic growth and not carbon reduction. The technology gets better but the situation doesn't get fixed. Hmmmmm!
 
I think we could have stable, cheapish, coldish, scalable fusion power tomorrow and still run into issues because the problems are social, not technological.

All the incredible efficiency, storage and transmission gains in the past 2 decades, which have progressed beyond predictions of the time, have been used to power economic growth and not carbon reduction. The technology gets better but the situation doesn't get fixed. Hmmmmm!
??? us per capita emissions actually have declined substantially in recent history
 
They have, it's true. Dropping from 'super-high' is still a success if the underlying problem is growing exponentially. There will be two questions though: is it on a trendline towards sustainable? AND, is it on a trendline towards 'mimicable'?

We're still (and as a Canadian, my hypocrisy is astounding) not spending enough of our fossil carbons on the replacement technologies. Not only do we need to replace our infrastructure, but we also need to create an alternative that beats fossil carbon, economically.

A Bangledeshi family has the moral right to burn as much carbon as my family has over the last 30 years, but we're screwed if they do.
 
Per capita carbon emissions have fallen from 20 metric tons to 15, but total US carbon emissions are basically flat.
 
Per capita emissions are what matter most, because 'mimicing' is done at the per capita level. Slicing the pie according to artificial borders rather than per capita leads to weirdness like "why should Canada do anything if the US is 10x worse?" or "China is as bad as the United States!". (I've even seen "stop letting people come from where they are generating 3 tonnes annually to where they generate 15 tonnes annually")

Assessing 'per country' or 'per landmass' just doesn't work. Anyway, that's not me stating things authoritatively, more of 'my debate' input wrt the long-term solutions. The per capita is what needs to come down, but the target number is such that any developed nation needs to drop total emissions to get to that number.
 
The ones we have now are fine, but at the end of the day renewables simply don't have the baggage or capital requirements (fiscal and political) that nuclear does.
 
Do you think we, generally as humans and perhaps more specifically in first world locations, should be building new nuclear power plants?
Humanity should be yoked to whatever wind and solar can provide.

The godlike power of fission and fusion is too much for us to handle.
 
I tend to be in favor of nuclear, mostly because it counters the conservative argument of "what if the sun isn't shining/the wind isn't blowing?" I am also pro-renewables. I think it is good to have a diverse distribution of power sources, so an issue with one of them won't be enough to cause blackouts.
 
They have, it's true. Dropping from 'super-high' is still a success if the underlying problem is growing exponentially. There will be two questions though: is it on a trendline towards sustainable? AND, is it on a trendline towards 'mimicable'?

We're still (and as a Canadian, my hypocrisy is astounding) not spending enough of our fossil carbons on the replacement technologies. Not only do we need to replace our infrastructure, but we also need to create an alternative that beats fossil carbon, economically.

A Bangledeshi family has the moral right to burn as much carbon as my family has over the last 30 years, but we're screwed if they do.
i'm not saying it was enough, just pointing out that tech actually did noticeably improve the per capita footprint, which is especially helpful because population growth rate seems to be leveling rather than just growing out of control. the latter could make otherwise useful improvements insufficient/result in problem going even worse.

thus i don't agree with the notion that the tech didn't help. it's helped a lot, just not sufficiently. the worst polluters are the ones still using dated stuff. for example china's population is going to contract soon, if they couple that with improved energy methods global emissions will slow even further.

agree that pushing more into tech is worth doing, and importantly more likely than trying to somehow enforce social change on a worldwide scale. if the latter were the only way to do it we're probably just screwed tbh.
 
i'm not saying it was enough, just pointing out that tech actually did noticeably improve the per capita footprint, which is especially helpful because population growth rate seems to be leveling rather than just growing out of control. the latter could make otherwise useful improvements insufficient/result in problem going even worse.

thus i don't agree with the notion that the tech didn't help. it's helped a lot, just not sufficiently. the worst polluters are the ones still using dated stuff. for example china's population is going to contract soon, if they couple that with improved energy methods global emissions will slow even further.

agree that pushing more into tech is worth doing, and importantly more likely than trying to somehow enforce social change on a worldwide scale. if the latter were the only way to do it we're probably just screwed tbh.

I wasn't talking about only the US, but if we are going to talk specifically about the US, was it demonstrably the tech that improved US per capita output? Comparing which years?(Mostly significant due to not wanting to accidentally include the COVID associated decrease as part of any decrease due to technological improvement)

Also, we are most definitely screwed if there is no social change, and if western populations can't get over their resentment of having to treat Chinese/Indian populations as approximately equivalent humans.
 
Enforcing the social change (on the rich) is one mechanism by which the alternatives would be created. There are a few ways of getting innovation going. The first is to create rules of what people cannot do, they will work around it (let's hope your rules are good!). The 2nd is to harness market forces. The 3rd is to democratically purchase the production of those innovations.
You'd need to use all 3, because each is insufficient. As well, because of the timeline pressures, you need to adopt each iterative improvement as fast as possible. If a regulation works faster than a tax, you need to consider the regulation (even if it's 'worse' in some dimension) because there's a clock ticking.

This is why I support nuclear, because there are regions in which where nuclear will be adopted more quickly than alternatives. The only long-term hope is to create alternatives that beat coal, which means that we need to be investing sufficiently in the creation of those alternatives OR buying time. One or the other. Or both.
 
I wasn't talking about only the US, but if we are going to talk specifically about the US, was it demonstrably the tech that improved US per capita output? Comparing which years?(Mostly significant due to not wanting to accidentally include the COVID associated decrease as part of any decrease due to technological improvement)

Also, we are most definitely screwed if there is no social change, and if western populations can't get over their resentment of having to treat Chinese/Indian populations as approximately equivalent humans.
straight up from 1970 until 2010 even.

dunno what to tell you, but i'm not inclined to attempt forcing social chance, and if we try to do that to india/china it could just be war. plus it would go against your last sentence. whatever "social" issues afflict the west wrt emissions, it seems asia has not had a better run of solving. you wanna claim you're treating them as approximately equal while also telling them how they have to think and behave, socially? i give them more credit than that, i'd expect them to fight it, just as many in the west will

Enforcing the social change (on the rich) is one mechanism by which the alternatives would be created.
in practice, who do you think controls the levers whereby this social change would originate?

i guess if the rich themselves take it seriously, it could happen. i'm not going to hold my breath on that one though.
 
I don't think there's likely to be anywhere in the world that has the institutional capacity and tens of billions of dollars in public funds to drop on a new nuclear power plant starting in 2022, who wouldn't get more electricity and sooner by spending the same amount of money on some combination of solar and wind. The gulf these days is pretty stark.
Have you read Bjorn Lomborg's work? I recently read Cool It and False Alarm both of which were excellent in addressing the hysteria and misinformation surrounding climate change while advocating for reasonable and measured changes that we could make to actually make substantial differences. I'm probably going to pick up his book on How to Spend $75 Billion to Make the World a Better place here in the next week or two.
 
Have you read Bjorn Lomborg's work? I recently read Cool It and False Alarm both of which were excellent in addressing the hysteria and misinformation surrounding climate change while advocating for reasonable and measured changes that we could make to actually make substantial differences. I'm probably going to pick up his book on How to Spend $75 Billion to Make the World a Better place here in the next week or two.

When you said Lomborg I immediately thought "Wow, not heard that name in ages. I wonder what hes doing these days? I bet he has been on Joe Rogan's show."

I googled it and in fact he has not. But that I thought he likely he could have should warn people unfamiliar with him as to his deal.

His "work" is garbage and I'm sorry you've been taken in by it.
 
When you said Lomborg I immediately thought "Wow, not heard that name in ages. I wonder what hes doing these days? I bet he has been on Joe Rogan's show."

I googled it and in fact he has not. But that I thought he likely he could have should warn people unfamiliar with him as to his deal.

His "work" is garbage and I'm sorry you've been taken in by it.
What is his "deal" and why is his work "garbage" for which you are sorry others have been "taken in" by it?
 
His whole grift is churning out content that makes dumb guys feel smart.

The main method is to endlessly call for new technologies to solve climate and energy, then make bad faith, cherry picked attacks on each of said technologies, for being unable to, in isolation, solve the entire thing.

It's going to keep him getting commissions and an audience for decades. Truly a self sustaining caper.
 
His whole grift is churning out content that makes dumb guys feel smart.

The main method is to endlessly call for new technologies to solve climate and energy, then make bad faith, cherry picked attacks on each of said technologies, for being unable to, in isolation, solve the entire thing.

It's going to keep him getting commissions and an audience for decades. Truly a self sustaining caper.
That first sentence sounds a lot like "anyone who agrees with him is an idiot." Careful not everyone here is as favorable to such arguments as me.

Which one of his books did you read? Both the books I read advocated for funding research but hardly a few paragraphs and even out of that only part of even that was on new technologies. So I wouldn't really call that the "main" method. Really not even sure what or why it is a problem to be calling for more funding for research...

What are you seeing as bad faith arguments? Looking at the wikipage criticisms it seems responses are cherry-picking his examples without looking at the context of the argument for those examples. Basically doing what they are accusing him of doing... and I don't think he ever once argued in either of the books I read that anything he offered would "solve the entire thing."

It's going to keep him getting commissions and an audience for decades. Truly a self sustaining caper.
Isn't this what climate change deniers claim about climate change advocates? I'm not sure how this is relevant or proves him wrong...
 
I like his thesis concept "spend where it will do the most good". I ear-mark my charity that way, and I try to be dispassionate. If I'm wrong, I pivot. Iterative wisdom.
Lomborg's major mistake is that (a) he doesn't really account for percentage risks (how do you calculate an '80% chance, things get worse; 20% chance things get terrible'?) and (b) he treats the game as a charity rather than a moral obligation. And (c) he continues to use the polar bear hunting as if it means something. That one really is problematic, because not only does he not recognize that it's dumb but also biases audiences away from how dumb it is.

The thesis itself isn't the worst. You can grow out of a crisis. If my credit card is 19% but I'm expecting a salary raise and benefits, it might make sense to delay a dentist visit. The math won't be easy, but it really could be true. So, I do not have the right to erode Bangledeshi shoreline with my emissions, but it is reasonable to offset that by helping them grow faster than the damage I cause. The problem is if I am not motivated, where I am somehow convinced that I'm allowed to kick the can down the road.
I really recommend everyone here listen to Jordan Peterson's interview with Lomborg. Nor for any science aspect, but you need to know what they're saying to each other. Peterson's bought Lomborg's story completely. It's 100 minutes of your time on a global crisis, so do it. However, we still know that it's being used as a salve rather than a solution.

Everyone knows that the solution isn't 'poor people stay poor'. And we fight around this truth with different models but also with a ginormous bias towards self-interest and 'not losing what you have acclimated to'.

"Cheap energy is necessary for poor people to grow their economy"
- yes! now tell me how wealthy Westerners bidding up the price of energy to drive SUVs and to heat their homes to 'don't need socks' temperatures helps. You'll note how rarely does 'Free Market Peterson' acknowledge that demand brings up prices. He'll tell a room full of McMansion SUVs that 'there is a problem, but the liberals don't have a real solution'. But, he'll not motivate three Christian principles: self-denial, limiting harms, and aggressive charity. Turn down your thermostat if you know that poor people need cheap energy, it's the first obvious thing you can do with an immediate impact. After that, read about Jevon's Paradox. But after that, because you only get to help fix Jevon's Paradox if you're not bidding up the price keeping the poor, poor.

"The needed solution is technological innovation"
- yes! So, if people actually believed this rather than having a salve they would have a pro-active platform to put money into this and be supporting it. There would be an R&D charity. There would be purchases that spurred R&D infrastructure. Conservatives would have real platforms on this concept. But they don't. It's because Lomborg doesn't actually motivate action on the very front his thesis supports.

"You can grow out of the crisis"
- sure! And you can aggravate the crisis but not bear the consequences. If someone accepts the extremely conservative "I'm not allowed to erode Bangledeshi shoreline for my own pleasure", then step 2 is offsetting that damage. If someone believed that simple truth, then calculate your externality cost roughly and fricken donate to pro-growth Bangledeshi (or wherever!) efforts. If someone isn't, they don't believe the thesis, they're just allowing two talking heads talk them into doing nothing.

I was a 'libertarian' while I was learning about AGW and making all my money in the stock market. "Don't cause damage you can't recompense" and "deny yourself luxuries to compensate your victims" and "doing it personally will be better than waiting for the government to figure out how to bungle it" are all normal libertarian talking points. So, I use less energy than my peers and I ear-mark some of the profits from my fossil carbon production into offsetting my damage through pro-growth charities. And then I look to see if the mainstream conservative also understands offsetting negative externalities and assisting in macro-economic growth and "DoN't ShOoT pOlAaR bEaRs If YoU cArE!" is used an example of 'liberal illogic'
 
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