Nukes, Unfair?

Should you be able to build defenses against nuclear bombs and missiles?

  • Yes, you should be able to combat the AI spam

    Votes: 182 63.6%
  • No, its fair the way it is, I don't mind losing huge amounts of pop and being defensless against it

    Votes: 104 36.4%

  • Total voters
    286
/sigh

If you want realism, look at how the world actually reacted to the only government ever to have used nuclear weapons as an act of war.

There was no defence, there were very few diplomatic reprocussions and the country in question, overall, was rather chuffed about it.

Well that was oversimplified to say the least...
They had no defence because Japan's air capabilities had already been mostly destroyed.
There were little reprocussion because you know, it was a member of the Axis that was being nuked. Wich nation would go on a crusade to defend Japan against anything at that point? Maybe if youd like to be marginalized and associated with the falling Axis you would.

Now, how the world would react if, say, URSS started a nuclear war on the cold war days? Do you feel there would be no reprocussions, and that they would get away with it with just a slap on the wrist?

It may not be necessary to go further, I think you get the point, but you could also say : Why didnt the US drop nukes on Vietnam long before it got out of hand ? It surely would have been a much cheaper and quicker solution to the war.

There are serious reprocussions to using nukes...there are reprocussions to BUILDING nukes. But given the circunstances, these can range from warnings to DoW's. It would definitly be interesting if the game could mimic this using what the game has to offer.

Moreover, if civilisations do not already have nuclear weapons, what on earth would make them dumb enough to suddenly go to war with a country that A: does have them and B: just proved they're willing to use them?

Nukes in game present a strategic and tactical challenge. Going back to the Civ4 options of SDI them to pointlessness, bomb shelter them to immunity and then UN vote them out of the game was quite frankly an utter pain.

If the whiners have to be appeased, nuclear weapons should be a game setting. Not something that can be mitigated to the point where you might as well be chucking potatoes at each other.

Like I've already said, watch out for the Manhattan Project, get their uranium and cover your own a$$.

I agree with this...Being able to be completly or mostly nuke-safe is boring, unrealistic, and make nukes .... not nukes.
 
Well that was oversimplified to say the least...
They had no defence because Japan's air capabilities had already been mostly destroyed.

There were little reprocussion because you know, it was a member of the Axis that was being nuked. Wich nation would go on a crusade to defend Japan against anything at that point? Maybe if youd like to be marginalized and associated with the falling Axis you would.

Now, how the world would react if, say, URSS started a nuclear war on the cold war days? Do you feel there would be no reprocussions, and that they would get away with it with just a slap on the wrist?

It may not be necessary to go further, I think you get the point, but you could also say : Why didnt the US drop nukes on Vietnam long before it got out of hand ? It surely would have been a much cheaper and quicker solution to the war.

There are serious reprocussions to using nukes...there are reprocussions to BUILDING nukes. But given the circunstances, these can range from warnings to DoW's. It would definitly be interesting if the game could mimic this using what the game has to offer.

Political statements\references used in the below post are being made to highlight game mechanics, lets not derail the thread into a geopolitical\historical debate more than necessary.

Oversimplified perhaps, but still accurate. The US droped two atomic devices on a country that was incapable of defending itself and the world barely blinked. If we're going to talk about realism as well as introducing unhappiness penalties in the game, then we're forced to look at the only real situation that we have on record. Regardless of Japans allegence at the time, the majority of the world didn't care and the US suffered very little unhappiness. But that came from a social point of view where people didn't question their governments as we do now, perhaps the discovery of Mass Media could introduce unhappiness for Nuclear weapon use, but if your nation has been at war with someone for 4,000 years and you level one of their cities, I'm not sure how upset your citizens would be. Not very is my first guess.

With regard to the USSR, I think you'll find that the majority of the world doesn't actually support a western point of view. During the cold war, the USSR had many allies all of whom wouldn't have been greatly upset that Washington DC was slightly flatter than before. So we're left again with the game mechanic of diplomatic penalities, which could only apply to Civs that had a sufficent level of friendliness with the victim Civ. Quite frankly if the Mongols and the Aztecs are at war with the Babylonians, why would the Aztecs get upset that the Mongols nuked Babylon? Just as Bejing wouldn't get very tearful if Moscow nuked New York.

Your comment re: Vietnam raises an interesting point. Perhaps we should consider that in 1945 only one country possessed nuclear weapons, by 1955 that situation had changed and the nuclear standoff was in place with the weapons themselves operating as a deterrent against their use rather than the show of strength they previously were. In fact as demonstrated in the Cuban missile crisis, they had become more political tools than actual weapons (although barely half an hour seperates us from a very different reality I admit.)

However, the Vietnam war wasn't a war between two nations, it was more-or-less a civil war that the US decided to take sides in to combat the "threat" of communism. I doubt that the South would have been too chuffed about their brothers in the North getting nuked regardless of the poltical agenda and thus the US would have utterly lost support and effectively handed South Vietnam to the communists. Civ, as far as I know, doesn't have a mechanism to replicate this situation, although I get what you're driving at.


Lastly, in the modern world, due to a certain government believing it can police the world, the building of nuclear weapons does cause issues. And it is this part that I actually like.

There is a modifer already for Civs which dictates their inclination to use nuclear weapons. There is also a notification for the Manhattan project that lets you know the other guy has the capability to use them...

What if.....if both sides have the Mahattan project, then they recieve notifications\information regarding the number of nuclear devices. A player is less likely to attack a Civ which has a nuclear arsenal and the AI can have it's modifer adapted depending on the ratio of nuclear weapons between the sides?

Thus, you have a functioning nuclear deterrent.

(If you don't have nukes you're screwed, but lets face it, if you've only got a spear you're pretty screwed against a guy with a handgun too.)
 
Try again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_bomb

Both of the weapons dropped on Japan were detonate on impact. Shooting down the bomber wouldn't have saved you unless you did it well away from it's intended target. As the proposal here is city based defense that's not going to help much.

Dude, that post is nonsensical. NO nuke is detonate-on-impact, if it gets one little ding on it, it'll screw up the timing and/or geometry of the triggering implosion. Gravity bomb? Seriously. Basically, do a little real research before spewing this sort of thing out.

You're also sort of implying I'm fibbing - I told you my brother does this (or did) for a living. Normally, an "appeal to authority" on an anonymous game forum doesn't hold much weight, but in this case I'm posting publicly, I've already mentioned my brother retired as exec officer of VMA-311 (Marine attack squadron), and both of us have internet credentials you can check. I was saying that not only does the bomb not go off, but he's telling me there's never any sort of dead-man switch or the like on them - quite the opposite, actually.

Ask me if there's something you don't understand here.
 
Losing Pop and not defending of it is how it works irl.
Japan lost 100,000+ people in the nuclear bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima and they were defenseless against it,
 
Ask me if there's something you don't understand here.

Both Little Boy and Fat Man were gravity bombs with altimeter led fuses. They were armed during flight and had timers to activate their internal batteries 15 seconds after release. That timer was controlled by a proximity switch connected to the bomb from the bomber. If it was shot down, the poroximity plug would have detatched, 15 seconds later the barometric fuse would engage, reach the determined detonation altitude and then, well, detonate. They were highly unsafe, as you'd expect the first of their kind to be stragely enough.

No offence intended, but unless your brother flew atomic bomb sorties in the 1940s it's kinda redundant making a referal. Nuclear weapon technology grew rapidly over the following decades where remote arming became possible. Modern nuclear bombs are of a completely different design to their early counterparts, the difference between a World War I mortar and a cruise missile is not a bad approximation.

This does not change the fact however, that in game, where this discussion is supposed to be based, if fighters were able to intercept atomic bombs, surely it would make sense to send your own escort fighters which would then pretty much render such a defensive system useless.
 
Why would shooting down the bomber cause the proximity plug to detach?

Calling this "detonate on impact" is certainly going to cause lots of confusion.
 
Why would shooting down the bomber cause the proximity plug to detach?

Calling this "detonate on impact" is certainly going to cause lots of confusion.

Think about it like a magnetic bath plug. It was designed to basically pop out when the bomb was dropped and activate it's primary fuses.

Unless you've managed to not not blow up the bomber and have it land in pristine condition, it's a fair presumption that a basic chunk of chain is going to detatch, even if the initial bomber explosion doesn't do it, damage caused by the crash would have and the barometric fuse would basically pop after that at sea level. It was a common issue with heavy bombs dropped across the period, but you have to bear in mind that the thinking of the time wasn't based around "user friendly warfare" like it is today. Moreover, there was the complete understanding that the mission would be a one way trip, the possibility of being shot down was part of the formula.

They weren't brilliantly designed mechanisms. Once they were armed, unless you decided to about face and give up on the mission they were almost certainly going to go off at some point.


If memory serves, Hiroshima detonated pretty much on impact having a low altitude set, Nagasaki was an airborne detonation. Gravity devices are triggered either by reaching a designated altitude or hitting the ground. Nagasaki was changed to be higher altitude as apparently Hiroshima didn't cause maximum possible devestation....because atomic bombs fired against people in wooden planes and paper houses need a maximum effect!!


The overall point is, a fighter based defense for the A Bomb is unfeasable.
 
The fighter planes in the game already have the air sweep mechanic, so they can act as escort for bomber planes. I see no reason why a defending fighter plane should not be able to intercept an incomming bomber plane carying a nuke.

I suspect they made nuke bombs immune to interception because, even if a bomber is intercepted it will most likely take 4 dammage and complete it's attack.
If that happens with the nuke, then the interception was just a waste of time.

I would suggest that they make nuke bomb planes interceptable, and if they are intercepted they are killed.

Regarding the talk of a nuke bomb going of when intercepted, I guess it's a valid point that with the old ones that could happen, but then it stands to reason that it would not go off over it's target area. Most likely somewhere on the border. And that is a completely new mechanic.
 
In terms of gameplay, if you wanted to make fighters intercept bombers (historical accuracy aside, as it's a game!) then they should scale with flight technology. An fighter for example, shouldn't be able to take down a stealth bomber, and a jet fighter should have a higher intercept chance.

Any SDI mechanism however, shouldn't negate a missiles attack, but should lessen the blow on the population by giving them a 3 minute warning or such. (Quite where you're going to run in 3 minutes is beyond me, but lets assume they have an amazing public transport system!)

What I would abhor seeing however, is a return to the Civ 4 concept of simply making nukes obselete by over powered defensive systems.

Perhaps you could have bomb shelters that reduce population damage by half and then make an SDI to intercept nukes with a 25% chance a national wonder linked to the bomb shelters?

That's as much ground as I'm giving, because I love nuking civs - even if they nuke me back. Heck, I use them just to give myself an advantage in a space race!
 
Regarding the talk of a nuke bomb going of when intercepted, I guess it's a valid point that with the old ones that could happen, but then it stands to reason that it would not go off over it's target area. Most likely somewhere on the border. And that is a completely new mechanic.

They won't, though. (Explode in a crash.) They're (atomic bombs) very fragile devices. It's not like a Mk. 85 dumb bomb, which you could beat on with a sledgehammer to your heart's content and still function as long as you didn't damage the fuse. (Not that I'm suggesting you want to do that sort of thing if you don't have a death-wish, but you probably could without affecting the bomb's function. :) ) Even disregarding safety mechanisms, any crash is going to be violent enough to render the atomic bomb's detonation sequence inert - again, you'll just end up with a localized environmental hazard.

The overall point is, a fighter based defense for the A Bomb is unfeasable.

Well, at least now we're having a good discussion. I think the proper response to this is "sometimes, sometimes not".

The Soviet Union threw billions of dollars into an air defense system starting in the late 40's to deter SAC's bomber-based arm of their offensive "triad". (Bombers, land based ICBMs, submarine launched intermediate-ranged ICBMs.) By the 70's, the bomber arm was basically obsolete - the projected success rate for B-52s attacking into the Soviet Union was abysmal. (Some bombs would be delivered, but most bombers would be shot down.) Japan was an entirely different situation. They had no radar technology, they didn't even have a decent WWII era air-defense system, disregarding the USA's air superiority in 1945. So, the key word here is "situation" - the effectiveness of a fighter based defense is situational, and depends more on the air defense system as a whole.

In-game, the ability to deter a bomber-delivered nuclear attack should depend on the conflicting civs' tech level. A high-tech civ doesn't have much to fear from a low-tech (but atomic capable) civ, assuming the delivery isn't (for lack of a better word) "clandestine". Likewise, past a certain point (say, jet fighters? actually guided missile technology) two high-tech civs can't depend on air-delivery, until they reach stealth (but even then, if you've got stealth, you've got ICBM's with very small error radii.)

Two civs with just prop tech, welp, that's interesting. If Germany had developed the A-bomb, could they have managed a strike against (say) London delivered by an FW-200 Condor? It'll be a real crap-shoot without air superiority.
 
In-game, the ability to deter a bomber-delivered nuclear attack should depend on the conflicting civs' tech level. A high-tech civ doesn't have much to fear from a low-tech (but atomic capable) civ, assuming the delivery isn't (for lack of a better word) "clandestine". Likewise, past a certain point (say, jet fighters? actually guided missile technology) two high-tech civs can't depend on air-delivery, until they reach stealth (but even then, if you've got stealth, you've got ICBM's with very small error radii.)

Completely agree. The effectiveness of WWII era fighters wasn't predictable enough to consider it to be a secure defense system. Even so, by the time they had reached a bomber squadron had it been carrying a nuke (all safety issues aside) the agressor could quite happily drop it and turn around knowing that they'd at least hit something if not the exact target. (Atomic weapons being more of a shotgun than a sniper rifle!)

Once you then consider modern fighter\inteceptor jets, they have insane operational and weapon ranges that would take out the offending bomber at a sufficent distance that it posed no threat whatsoever rendering them obselete and forcing the Civ to use missile tech instead.

Of course, this does require the defending Civ to actually build fighter jets and given that jet fighters depend on aluminium to operate, you are limited by that resource.

As a compromise, a city based defense could work if say garrisoned fighters required no resources. So you could build fighters to your hearts content, but to use them for anything other than city defense you'd need resources.

Not entirely sure how that mechanic would work, but if you're going to have fighters/jet fighters as a defense against nukes you'd need to balance the issue to allow the player\AI to defend all of their cities and not just the 4 that they have resources for. Otherwise you end up crippled by defending yourself before you even look at spaceship factories, hydro plants etc.
 
do nukes suffer a strategic resource penalty if you pillage the uranium *after* the ai has built them?

they are a bit overpowered anyhow, but hella fun. my stalemate with darius for hegemony on a massive continent was decided when i got nukes. i was finally able to push past his massive army by dropping several atomic bombs on him. i bombed every city at least twice, scooting in with tanks to capture them. he didn't last long after that. i'm not sure whether this really added much strategic depth to the game however.. my gf who was playing hotseat with me at the time was a bit horrified with my willingness to annihilate populations and throw nuclear fallout over all the land, but after a world war 1 stalemate for a big portion of the game with the guy, i felt very happy to finally clear him out.
 
This is why we need bombers/artillery to be able to bombard and destroy tile improvmentd like in the older Civs, it would be a realistic and fun way to stop uranium deposts
 
Glücklich;10774607 said:
Yeah nukes seem to be way overpowered in Civ 5.

I would say they are underpowered, if anything. GIven the limited uranium resources available and their slow production time, the sort of WW3 annihilatory exchange (>> one warhead per city) that was contemplated during the Cold War just cannot happen. I'd like to see an atom bomb factory that adds 100% to uranium-based weapon production. That would add realism. The first atomic weapons took ages to build, but a decade later they were being mass produced. A MIRV that would say split in three for a massive area of damage (or area of massive damage) would be a nice upgrade path for the nuclear missile. This technology was available in the 1970s.

Defences against ICBMs exist only in theory.
 
IIRC, someone once posted a complaint that you lose any nukes you have built that go over your current amount of Uranium if your source if cut-off whether from a trade ending, having it pillaged or losing your CS ally. So if you have 10 nukes and your uranium supply drops to 4 you'd lose 6 of them. I haven't tested this myself since I rarely go for nukes.

Whether this info is correct or not, I think it's a good idea to have this happen. Another good idea might be to actually reduce the damage they do, including their radius, to 50% of normal when you lack enough resources to maintain your current number of nukes.

If his info is correct you could drop your nukes near enough to the enemy's uranium to "pillage" it, thus destroying some of the nukes they'd retaliate with.

Speaking of pillaging with nukes, I do miss the Civ 4 air strike's ability to destroy resource improvements.
 
I never trade or rely on an outside source for uranium.

Never.

That's the worst possible thing that could ever happen in any game. Iron, Coal, Oil, Aluminium, they are still fine and dandy to rely on somebody else for supply, but the heart of nukes is just a no-no. It's like entrusting your entire national defense to the whim of a 5-year old miscreant with a penchant for explosive violence. If such a hypothetical scenario were to occur, one might as well have given up everything in their civs to the nearest neighbor or two.
 
What's so unfair about nukes? Both human and AI can use them, chuck them at eachother etc.
It's like saying riflemen are overpowered: everybody gets them at some point.
 
I have seen that the AI use the atomic bomb over the missile for the most part. The A-bomb will not take out units on the first hit and the AI will keep lobbing them at the same city 3 times in a row until the units are dead. Go for the missile and take out any uranium mines directly. This will stop the production of future A-bombs, take out any units within two tile radius, and also have the same damaging effect on nearby cities (two tiles) as if hit directly.
 
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