OCC science poll: Korea or Babylon

[ekat2468]

I have been looking more in-depth at the science victory, and I have concluded 2 superior OCC science civs: Korea or Babylon. Which do you guys think is better. I am Korea, personally.

 

[Wargizmo]

Babylon I think. Their bonus comes into play earlier with the fast academy. You can tech philosophy really fast and get NC building before needing to tech composite bows. You can rely on bowmen for early defence as well, and you can always build the walls if you get attacked, which pretty much make cities invincible early. Furthermore you get the most out of their bonus even if you just run great scientists, whereas with Korea you need to run more specialists to get the most out of it, which means you're not growing as fast and risk generating non-scientist great people which will slow your tech down.

In the end you're getting about 1.5x as many acadamies, plus an early bonus academy, plus an early defence bonus, and the guarantee of generating pretty much just great scientists even if you want to run other specialists.
Ironically I think Korea is one of the best civs for cultural victory because you can run a bunch of great artists and engineers and still not fall behind on science.

Just looking at the pure math of it.. The early academy gives you +6 science, so until you're running 3 specialists you're not even breaking even as Korea, then Babylon gets their second academy out quicker too.. for one city games it doesn't even seem close.

 

[sutasafaia]

For a tall empire I would say Korea. However, for an OCC, I would say Babylon. You want more than one city to take advantage of the bonus Korea gets with specialists if you want it to outweigh the bonuses of all those great scientists.

 

[budweiser]

Korea is better because the Babylon UA (faster GS) is better with multiple cities, while the Korean UA works well with just one capital city.

 

[ekat2468]

One thing is, I like Korea's Unique Units for the period of defense when most civs have their UU'S and are most agressive. ( H'wacha's aren't obsolete until artillery in terms of defense, and Turtle ships can even stand up to ironclads) I agree, Korea is really good with multiple cities, and I find them useful to generate not just scientists, but also put specialists into engineers (to get science wonders) Artists (helps with freedom/rationalism) as well as Merchants ( maritime city-states), while getting science out of everything. I am writing a Korea article for the war academy, so for even more opinions, wait for that (although it may be a while, so I'm not apposed to further discussion here)

 

[ekat2468]

I basically think of Korea as food = everything else, not just science. Babylon is strictly scientists only. Another discussion is the Freedom Vs. Order. With Babylon, the in-writing war academy article says that order is better with Babylon (planned Economy). I think Freedom is necessary for Korea to run as many specialists as they are supposed to (in other words ALL of them)

 

[Crafty Bison]

I basically think of Korea as food = everything else, not just science. Babylon is strictly scientists only. Another discussion is the Freedom Vs. Order. With Babylon, the in-writing war academy article says that order is better with Babylon (planned Economy). I think Freedom is necessary for Korea to run as many specialists as they are supposed to (in other words ALL of them)

Korea's tendancy towards freedom aids them in being a powerhouse culture civ that hits freedom early and gets to acoustics/archeology/radio quicker than anyone else. However, in an efficient pure science game there is no time for freedom, the game should be over before it can be really useful, hence the tendancy towards order, which only needs 2 SP's into it, wheras freedom gets its big kick from the finisher. In a science game I'd take order for both.

Btw OP no Incas? .

 

[OwlRaider]

For OCC definitely Babylon. Their Bowmen make for superb early defense in higher difficulties when early defense is needed, while Korea's units are on the offensive side and of not much use to a OOC game, since you can't get puppets. Also with just 1 city Babylon's UA is better than Korea's. Korea can be better than Babylon in standard science games in which you go aggressive to either weaken key opponents or steal key wonders the AI has built and keep these cities as puppets for the entire game. Still, in a standard game Babylon can always Bowmen rush, which is basically an improved Archer rush, which is already an extremely powerful tactic.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

these discussions come up every so often. it is an interesting debate. i posted an informal test thread a while back, pre-fall patch but it was GnK, where you could play 6 different civs all on the exact same map, exact same everything from opponents to CS. not sure about playing it now since it was pre-patch.

there was an emperor and deity challenge. here is the deity one if you feel like reading it.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=477725

 

[GAGA Extrem]

The answer is: NEITHER!

I played a lot of OCC games with those two, but I am convinced that the INCA are much better at OCC science. You get much more food, so that you can employ more specialists and work way more great person tiles compared to the special science civs. You will end up with a much larger city that growth even in the modern era, sometimes up to a point where you can can work all tiles and fill all specialist slots.

If I had to pick, I would go with Korea. Their combined traits seem way more powerful in a limited OCC environment.