Odd... Great Library vs. Education

[Dragonlor]

Ok, so I'm in a Monarch game and I manage to build the Great Library which gives me many nice techs. Eventually the time comes when an AI is mean enough to learn Education and render my wonder obsolete. The odd thing was that just before it said my wonder was obsolete, a message popped up saying I got the Education advance for free.

In my mind the order would go like this:
- An AI learns Education.
- My wonder is now obsolete.
- The end.

It takes two AI's to learn a tech for my wonder to give me the advance. Someone would have to be the first to learn Education and render my wonder obsolete. At what point should the wonder get rendered obsolete: At the exact moment someone learns Education or at the start of my turn?

My guess is that wonders are made obsolete at the start of the controlers turn. And between an AI learning Education and my turn, another AI also learned Education on the same turn. When my turn started, the game checks to see if I should get some free tech before checking to see if my wonder was obsolete. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Sir Len Taft]

The GL is rendered obsolete when you learn Education, so if the two AI learn anything more than Education the same turn the second learn education, then you can learn furthur than Education. There was a SG, high-level, where the players where way behind in techlogy, but captured GL and learned every technolgy up to Steel, I think, could be wrong there...

 

[Rammstein]

No, I've heard of that too.

 

[wilbill]

I once gained 14 techs - well into the Industrial Age the turn after I captured the GL. I've read accounts of people getting considerably more than that.
The GL becomes obsolete when you obtain Education, but you do get any techs available through the GL on that turn.

 

[Rik Meleet]

There even is a tactic exploiting this. Assuming you have the Great Lib. As soon as Education is around, but you haven't got it, give away the city to a civ which is located far far away (other continent). After many many turns (in which you don't research), capture the city. Let's assume 2 AI have gone researching until Sattelites.
The next turn begins. The computer spots you having the Great Library and you haven't got Education yet. It then checks for all techs 2 civs have and give it to you (in my example all the way to Sattelites). From the Middel Ages to the Modern age in 3 easy steps

 

[smackster]

The GL is rendered obsolete when you learn Education, so if the two AI learn anything more than Education the same turn the second learn education, then you can learn furthur than Education. There was a SG, high-level, where the players where way behind in techlogy, but captured GL and learned every technolgy up to Steel, I think, could be wrong there...

I think I played in it, Diety level, sneak attacked by the Persians twice very early, we were so far behind in land and tech that I was embarrassed to keep playing.

The Great Library was on another continent seperated by Oceans and we were no where near getting the tech to get our galleys over there. We built a suicide galley force that went half way over the ocean, half of them sunk then we moved another force of galleys full of Cavalry and cannon and shuttled them onto the suicide galleys that were left, and then moved those galleys with our troops to safety. The force arrived at Kyoto, bombarded it and then took it. We went from not knowing how to build Universities, to knowing how to build tanks on the next turn

That wasn't even the end of it, as Persia had such a massive lead, they started building the Spaceship. They had such a massive military also (double our number of MA) that it seemed like suicide to fight them, but fight we did and destroyed their Spaceship. Actually we didn't even have two of the resources needed for building Modern Armour, but traded for them, and upgraded.

That wasn't even the end of it, as the other continent started building their own space ships and we destroyed two more, before building out own and winning the game. Goes to show you can win any game of civ if you try.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=78782&page=1&pp=20

 

[Dragonlor]

Wow, I didn't know it doesn't expire until you learn Education. Does this "Learn Everything" exploit still exist? I think it should be patched...

 

[alamo]

Yep, on occasion I've gotten past Education. Basically the GL is not obsolete until you get the pop-up on your turn.

So you could get Education from the AI who goes immediately after you (by trading education) and then get yet another tech from each AI in turn when they trade techs.

Of course, getting those bonus techs means that you were getting behind.

The GL gift strategy, eh? I guess that could be a Sid-level trick, assuming you could build the GL in the first place.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I have just failed building it at Sid .

So someday i will conquer it, even if its just for 1 turn.

 

[narmox]

yeah, unlike civ2, wonders are obsolete when the civ owning them learns whatever tech obsoletes the wonder, not when any civ learns it.

 

[ongwin]

I'm a bit confused with this. You guys are telling me that you are far behind in tech, then you capture the GL from the enemy and have technology to move you into the modern age?

What if you have already researched education BEFORE you capture the enemy city which has GL, would you still get all those techs?

 

[stormbind]

How do you destroy spaceships?

 

[ongwin]

Capturing the capital destroys spaceshisps.

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

I'm a bit confused with this. You guys are telling me that you are far behind in tech, then you capture the GL from the enemy and have technology to move you into the modern age?

What if you have already researched education BEFORE you capture the enemy city which has GL, would you still get all those techs?

If you have education then you don't get the bonus techs.

 

[ongwin]

So this means that you are in the middle ages without education while people are in the industrial ages, and you captured a city with the great libary and then before the end of the turn (when comp counts that you have education to render GL obsolete), you get all the techs all the way to industrial age??

 

[Xerol]

Yep. Any tech that 2 civs has on the turn that you get the GL as long as you don't have education becomes yours. I recently flipped a Zulu city while playing as Persia, and got all the way to The Corporation and Scientific Method in one turn, and I wasn't even finished learning the lower medieval tech tree(just finished chemistry).

 

[civ_steve]

Check out the thread 'SirPleb going for SID' on the HOF page. He built the Great Library, gave it away just before learning Education, than retook it and learned all the remaining MidAges Techs, and 4 IA Techs. He documented his game very well in the thread.

 

[redstoner]

I personally think the Great Library should either never go obsolete, or at least have the effect last longer. Maybe after education is discovered, it would require 3 other civs to have the tech for you to gain it from the GL, or maybe goes obsolete when you build 3 universities or 1 research lab.

It works fine the way it is now, it's just that I usually get education from other civs through the GL, which makes it obsolete. That really ticks me off sometimes.