[BTS] Old player leveling up (starting with Monarch)

[isomittari]

Whiping with granary is roughly 2.5 more efficient than slow-building. Besides, you can live without new workers for a while, its not urgent. In fact, if you grew to lvl 4 and whipped, you would have those workers earlier than if you slow-build them.
If you want to elepult someone (Lincoln and Shaka to be exact), you need to hook up ivory soon. May be settle on ivory 2S of the stone. This way you grab all the resources in one go and won't have to bother with that horrible food-deprived region anymore. Remember that you need HBR as well.
I'm not sure about wheat+fish. May be just raze New York and rebuild 1SE? I don't like to raze though. Fish+deer+copper is a good place but will take time to set it up properly. I think its fish+deer => ivory => granary in Persepolis. In Ectabana granary => worker.
There is an alternative: finish that last settler in Persepolis and 2-pop whip another in Pasargadae. There are a lot of options now that you have several decent cities.
Don't build too many roads, think where you will need them for military units. Plan where you will whip them and plan the roads accordingly.
Delaying Myst/Sailing/IW is fine, those are some of the technologies the AI tends to research early.
Actually you can get Sailing and IW right now. With Sailing you will instantly have +2 trade routes in all your cities.

Okay, so the goal is to build Fish+Copper+Deer city first with Settler from Persepolis and then 2-whip another Settler for Ivory town in the south. My goal for the near future is to Elepult Lincoln and after that hopefully Shaka.

Anysense gives good advice. You didn't grasp my last post at all, it seems. Whip settlers/workers after you have a granary! A granary does NOTHING if you stagnate. Thus first whipping a granary and then slow-building a worker is a huge mistake (if they are your two next builds in a city, do it the other way around!). I also used to make the same mistake when climbing up in difficulty levels.

You don't really need to connect Ecbatana. Building cottages is way more important. Chopping out that worker is more important, so that you can grow. Stagnating at size 1-2 is bad, when you have many good tiles available. Aim to work strong tiles as fast as possible. Mining the copper in the west is moot. Food negative tiles (ones giving less than 2 ) are usually mediocre at best, gold being an exception, but also it's value diminished when the game moves further. A cottaged floodplain is a strong tile, so that's what you should be doing with that worker.

Yeah I made that exact mistake while I played the next turnset and just noticed your post... So I will play it again just to see how much difference this makes. Is it worthwhile to stack Workers to get cottages faster or should I just work them individually?

You definitely don't need those fogbusters in the jungle. Your cities will soon need some military police in them for , so I'd just pull some of them home. Just cover the stone area.

Don't the barbs start sending their archers (and eventually axemen) my way? It just seems that I would need some Warriors on forested hills to defend my empire from them.

 

[sampsa]

Yeah I made that exact mistake while I played the next turnset and just noticed your post... So I will play it again just to see how much difference this makes. Is it worthwhile to stack Workers to get cottages faster or should I just work them individually?

Yes. If your city is otherwise working unimproved tiles, definitely improve a tile asap.

Don't the barbs start sending their archers (and eventually axemen) my way? It just seems that I would need some Warriors on forested hills to defend my empire from them.

Not really. They have closer targets. Those barb cities also spawnbust, so random barb units don't pop up in that area. Get your scout away from there and unfog coastal tiles to get trade routes with every AI at sailing. In your save you are paying 1 because you have so many units outside of your borders. It's not a disaster, but it's still one less for you per turn.

You also have copper, and building just one axeman at some point will remove all barb threat, since they can come only from one direction.

 

[isomittari]

Okay, so the goal is to build Fish+Copper+Deer city first with Settler from Persepolis and then 2-whip another Settler for Ivory town in the south. My goal for the near future is to Elepult Lincoln
and after that hopefully Shaka.

Spoiler 71-84 :

T71: I trade Alpha to IW with Liz and Alpha to Sailing with Lincoln.
T72: I start moving my fogbusters towards cities to reduce the supply costs.
T73: Settler from Persepolis is out and heads out for the Copper+Fish+Deer spot, I start slowbuilding a Granary. Pasargadae is done with WB and starts on a Settler (which I will 2-whip).
T74: Pasargadae 2-whips a Settler, OF goes to WB.
T75: Math finished, I start on HBR.
T77: Most cities are building Granaries and growing.
T82: I 2-whip a Settler in Pasargadae, it will try to reach the Fish+Wheat spot before Lincoln.
T83: HBR is done, Lincoln and Liz are ready to trade Myst but I don't have anything other than Math to give for it... Ectabana 2-whips a Granary.
T84: Masonry done, I start on Constitution.

Spoiler Maps :

I feel like this turnset went okay, but now I need a good plan for the future. I still need to tech Construction. So for war all whipping cities need Granary + Barracks at least.
Lincoln does not seem like a big threat but Shaka will definitely put me to test. Should I trade Math or HBR to Myst with Lincoln?

 

[Anysense]

We looking at ~550 BC Construction and ~300 BC attack date which is okay for deity, so you are right in your assessment. You don't have to build barracks in all of your cities. You see, they cost 50, only 10 less than a war elephant and you want your cities to be ready to start whiping army once you've finished Construction. In other words, some of your cities can afford barracks while others can't. I'd attack Lincoln first, because I'd like to turn Washington into a GP farm. It's also good to keep lookouts in the territory you are about to invade, that would give you a good idea of what kind of force you need.

@sampsa Thanks for observation about the copper in Tarsus and low food tiles in general. I got distracted and forgot about it completely.

@isomittari I see you worker on that tile again
There is still an unimroved FP near Tarsus, and who needs that 0 4 mine when there are fooldplains?
Your capital is unhealthy, and Shaka wants to sell corn and clam.
Lizz and Lincoln will trade Mysticism. I think they would do so ever since the Stonehenge was built (925BC) and you missed the message about techs available for trade.
I'm not sure how to manage your capital best, haven't done the math, but you definitely need to whip something, don't just slow build like that. May be lighthouse first, then library.

 

[isomittari]

We looking at ~550 BC Construction and ~300 BC attack date which is okay for deity, so you are right in your assessment. You don't have to build barracks in all of your cities. You see, they cost 50, only 10 less than a war elephant and you want your cities to be ready to start whiping army once you've finished Construction. In other words, some of your cities can afford barracks while others can't.

I could whip Barracks in few cities, should I do this just one turn before Construction?

I'd attack Lincoln first, because I'd like to turn Washington into a GP farm. It's also good to keep lookouts in the territory you are about to invade, that would give you a good idea of what kind of force you need.

They have some Axes and some Archers, but not yet Spearmen.

@isomittari I see you worker on that tile again
There is still an unimroved FP near Tarsus, and who needs that 0 4 mine when there are fooldplains?

I wasn't going to mine the desert Copper, but head out for the Wheat + Fish spot only to realize that the wheat was already inside Lincoln's culture...

For this turnset, I will start preparing my cities for the upcoming war by whipping Granaries and other required buildings.

Spoiler 84-93 :

T84: I start a LH in Persepolis, gonna whip 2-pop whip it. I trade HBR to Myst with Lincoln and start building Monuments in Gordium and Bactra - gonna whip 'em both eventually.
T85: Gordium whips a Monument so that I can work that Deer and Fish eventually. Persepolis 2-whips a LH and starts on continues on a Library. I decide to leave the Fish+Wheat spot and move the next city SE of Rice.
T87: Sardis is found, Worker starts improving the Rice. Pasargadae 2-whips a Library and starts on a WB. Persepolis 2-whips a Library and starts on a Barracks.
T88: Tarsus whips a Granary and starts on a Library.
T89: Ectabana 2-whips a Library, starts on a Barracks. I set up the first Scientist in Persepolis, second one comes in two turns after it grows.
T90: Susa 2-whips a Library, starts on a Barracks. Gordium whips a Granary and starts on a LH.
T91: Persepolis is now working two Scientists.
T93: Liz converts to Christianity. Next turn I will get Construction and should start building both Catapults and Elephants for the war.

Spoiler Maps :

I made a small miscalculation as I thought I would need HBR AND Horses for the Elephants. Didn't really matter, but I started making roads from my cities a few turns too late.

Now I need to estimate how many Catapults and Elephants I need. Taking into consideration that Lincoln has Copper and Hunting, he has access to Spearmen which might slow my Elephants down a bit.

Were the Scientists in Persepolis a mistake? I thought I could bulb something later on and I also did not want to get unhappiness. Should I whip Barracks here in Pasargadae, Ectabana and Susa? Do I save Persepolis from whipping and let it grow? Do I 2-whip everything?

 

[Rusten]

Disclaimer: Haven't read all the comments so sorry if I repeat some things. Opened the save.

Just because it's called elepult doesn't mean that you should attack with only elephants and catapults. The #1 rule of attacking with siege is that you want cheap units to mop up badly injured units (either by catapult damage or after an unsuccessful battle). This is the case all the way up to the modern ages. You should always bring chariots/axes which are lower hammer units but are just as effective (still win their battle). You need only a small amount of your "tech/advantage unit" to beat the most difficult defenders. The rest of the stack should be a ragtag gathering of cheap units. This early the axes also serve as stack protectors, but even if you attack in the medieval times or later they should come along. But don't worry, I even see deity players making this mistake (attacking with only rifles and cannons for instance, or not having axes/swords in their medieval stacks but instead only macemen).

Quantity trumps quality. Don't underestimate cheap units.

Why I bring this up:
You have reached your final war tech (construction) but you have 0 offensive units. You should've had a bunch of axes prepared already and then declared after getting a few WEs and catapults. The libraries (other than in your capital) are not needed and could've been almost 3 axes each. Imagine how much faster you could attack if you had 10+ axemen already!
Cities that produce the catapults (and other mop-up units) don't require barrackses. Only build them in a select few cities which will produce a lot of units (including your strongest units).

edit: The best way to build up is getting axes while teching construction --> start making catapults while teching HBR --> complete the SoD with WEs.

 

[Anysense]

Little to add to what Rusten said. My favourite part is how many axemen you could have instead of libraries. The one in Persepolis and may be in Susa are worth it, because those are your best cities commerce wise, but in Pasargadae and Ecbatana... Too little gain in the short term for 90, and 5-6 axemen instead would be more use.
He is also right about barracks. In particular it looks weird to build barracks in Persepolis and run scientists in there. Building units and producing GP's are too things that don't get along very well. You can delegate the task of producing you first GS to a different city.

 

[Snowbird]

If we are into military insights... can someone explain what is so great about WE if not facing longbows? Stack of CR swords is nearly as effective against archers/axes, especially if you are relying on cats anyway.

 

[Anysense]

If we are into military insights... can someone explain what is so great about WE if not facing longbows? Stack of CR swords is nearly as effective against archers/axes, especially if you are relying on cats anyway.

I think Rusten has already answered that question. Your stack does not have to consist only of WE's and catapults, it may contain a variety of units including CR swords, provided you have iron.

 

[sampsa]

Overall, empire looks good. Work those crabs in the capital though, you have invested in them (workboats+lighthouse) and they are your strongest tiles available.

 

[Snowbird]

I think Rusten has already answered that question. Your stack does not have to consist only of WE's and catapults, it may contain a variety of units including CR swords, provided you have iron.

Not really. To be more precise what's the point in having any WE at all?

If you consider library to be 3xaxe, then WE is like 2xaxe... only unit worth that kind of investment is longbow. Bellow Immortal elepult never meets longbows if done properly. So what's the point of elepult?

 

[sampsa]

So what's the point of elepult?

To learn how to do it, I think. Of course it's an overkill for this level.

 

[gaash2]

Not really. To be more precise what's the point in having any WE at all?

If you consider library to be 3xaxe, then WE is like 2xaxe... only unit worth that kind of investment is longbow. Bellow Immortal elepult never meets longbows if done properly. So what's the point of elepult?

Even on immortal I find the 'pult' is much more important than the 'ele'.

 

[isomittari]

He is also right about barracks. In particular it looks weird to build barracks in Persepolis and run scientists in there. Building units and producing GP's are too things that don't get along very well. You can delegate the task of producing you first GS to a different city.

I missed this part, luckily I figured it out on my own...

Thank you for all these great tips! I certainly did not prepare for this war well enough, but I'll try to learn from these mistakes and keep playing from where I left off. I will now connect the Copper, whip some Axes, Catapults and WE's and attack once I feel like I am strong enough.

Spoiler 93-105 :

T94: Construction done, I start on Currency for those sweet TR's and gold trades. Ectabana and Susa 2-whips a Barracks and starts building WE. Tarsus starts on a Catapult.
T95: Tarsus whips a Catapult, Pasargadae whips a Barracks and starts on WE. Persepolis Copper will be connected in two turns (big mistake!)
T96: Susa 2-whips a WE. Ectabana whips a WE and starts on a Catapult. Tarsus 2-whips a Catapult.
T97: Lincoln has a lonely Spearman wandering, which means he has built at least one... Copper connected, I will whip some Axes in the smaller cities. I whip another WE in Persepolis. Tarsus 2-whips a Catapult. Pasargadae whips another WE. I trade HBR to Meditation with Liz. Susa whips a Catapult and Pasargadae an Axeman.
T104: I declare on Lincoln. I have 7 WE's, 5 Catapults and 3 Axes, although some of these troops are still on their way.
T105: Boston is captured easily, and Lincoln no longer has Copper for Spearmen. I keep the city, it has forests for whipping and some riverside tiles. I can also use the Deer for feeding the city. I forgot to send Workers on the frontier to build roads, I will send two right away.

Spoiler Maps :

Many small mistakes delayed the DoW by many turns, maybe next time I can do it better. Anyway, I conquered Boston easily and without losses, removing Copper from Lincoln. I have 9 WE's, 7 Catapults and 4 Axemen and I think that unless I get some really bad luck, the rest of the Lincoln's cities will fall easily.

I have a few questions: Do I keep on whipping/chopping troops? What should I research? Machinery -> Engineering for Trebs? CoL -> CS and eventually bulb Philo? Should I keep all of Lincoln's cities? By @Anysense 's suggestion, I would like to make Washington into a GP Farm.

 

[Anysense]

7WE+5cats+3axes is an overkill, and you don't need cats at all unless New York has walls and at least 5 defenders. You will need more units agains Shaka, hard to to be specific as we have no information at all as to how many units he have or even whether his capital stands on hills or flatland.
I see no use for trebs here. Not in the near future, anyway. The main issue is . I keep forgetting how slow the monarch AI's are. No calendar resources available for trade in 250 BC? Oh, that's nice, they don't even have calendar yet. Well, you'll have to do everything on your own. There is a barbarian city with sugar in the 1st ring, and you can settle a city with banana+dye. If you are quick enough, you'll gain +2 in ~10 turns.
A note ragarding whip anger: don't use 1-pop whips as they stack anger to quickly. Even if you whip axemen, take care to make it 2-pop whip.
You don't have any units suitable to become a medic. You want him to weak, so he never defends should the stack get attacked and does not get killed, and preferably quick. Immortal is the best candidate.

 

[Anysense]

Not really. To be more precise what's the point in having any WE at all?

If you consider library to be 3xaxe, then WE is like 2xaxe... only unit worth that kind of investment is longbow. Bellow Immortal elepult never meets longbows if done properly. So what's the point of elepult?

Over last 2,5 years I played just 1 or 2 games below immortal, so I have no idea what elepult meets on those difficulty levels. Anyway, there is no point in learning how to exploit low level AI's weaknesses best, unless you play low difficulty games for HOF.

 

[Snowbird]

I think by far the best point is to learn to adapt to the situation. If you always play the stuff the same way regardless the circumstances are you learning anything at all?

The difficulty level is just one of the circumstances, but in general... Does my target has/can soon get longbows/maces?.. No, then no to elephants.

And I am pretty sure if OP makes to Immortal/Deity fine points of elephant warfare will be very down on his need list.

 

[Anysense]

No longbows => don't build elephants is not an ultimate truth of CIV, it's just your rule of thumb. And seeing as you are so dogmatic, sticking to strict rules, your accusation of me being insufficiently versatile is just an empty phrase, if not downright hypocrisy.

 

[isomittari]

I will keep on conquering Lincoln, and my goal is to get two more jungle cities in the south before the end of this turnset. I will also build more troops against Shaka and also try to maintain my economy.

Spoiler 105-120 :

T110: I forgot to report the previous turns, but basically I started a Settler for that Banana + Dye spot and send some troops for the Sugar barb city. I also progressed towards New York which had Walls.
T111: Olmec and New York has been captured.
T112: I trade Math for Poly + PH with Liz.
T113: Sardis whips a Granary. Next up is a Library.
T114: Ragnar demands Math from me and I give it to him. Washington is captured, I lose some Catapults in the process. Gordium 2-whips a Barracks. I trade Currency + 90GP to Mono + Monarchy with Liz, I get -1 from Ragnar. I change to HR + OR to fight unhappiness and to eventually spread religion faster.
T116: Calendar is finished, I start on CoL. New York whips a Monument, I want to grab that Wheat ASAP. I start improving the Sugar in the jungle. Tarsus whips a Barracks and the OF goes to Catapult.
T117: Lincoln is no more, I raze his last city.
T118: Dye is improved, this helps a little bit with happiness. Sugar is also finished in few turns. My troops are moving to Shaka's border, I have one spare GG.
T120: CoL is done, I start on CS to run Bureau capital eventually. I want to 3-whip a Library in Washington and start running GP there. Tarsus whips a Library, Gordium a WE. Ectabana 2-whips a WE.

Spoiler Maps :

I researched Calendar and got two cities with Calendar resources to fight unhappiness, like @Anysense suggested. This plan went smoothly. Also, Lincoln has been vanquished, although I lost a bunch
of Catapults in the process. I forgot to put my espionage points on Shaka...

I have 13 WEs, 12 Catapults, 4 Axes and Immortal Medic. I also have an extra GG, what should I use it for? I think some of my cities need garrison to fight the unhappiness, should I use the leftover troops after my war with Shaka, or whip some Archers/Axes/Warriors now? I also have a problem with production - I don't know if I should produce more troops, build Wealth, buildings, ...?

 

[Snowbird]

If you think it (WE vs non longbows/maces) is not always the truth... counter examples are needed. I would like to widen my understanding of WE applications.

p.s. I am most certainly not accusing anyone of anything, lol.