Old World crops in the New World

[Guynemer]

One of the things that takes me out of immersion is native villages teaching colonists to be expert sugar or coffee planters; these are crops that the Europeans brought with them to the Americas. Tobacco, cotton, coca, etc., all being native to the Americas, makes perfect sense.

Of course, cotton and hemp were also native to the Old World, so I think Expert Planters for hemp and cotton should be recruitable from Europe as well as teachable by the First Nations, while Expert Planters for sugar and coffee should only show up on the docks.

 

[raystuttgart]

You are 100% correct considering authenticity / history / immersion.
Still I personally hate this discussion ... simply because I had been part in discussing that topic already at least 10 times during TAC and RaR.

Please don't consider this to be disrespectful or impolite against you personally.
I simply know this will become a tedious and controverse discussion though. Same "Authenticiy vs. Gameplay" arguments all the time.

To sum my old experiences from discussions up:

- it is definitely authentically correct and technically also possible to find difficult game mechanics and new features to handle it
- gameplay would suffer (adding complex and tedious mechanics - that most "casual players" will not understand or like)
- it would be causing incredible efforts and side effects (for reworking existing systems and features we already have)
- it would become extremely difficult to balance / rebalance
...

• Sometimes games need to be simplistic where needed.
• Give the players what they think is true and expect - not what was really historically accurate

A big fat no go for me. Sorry.
(I know though that other mods have tried it but will not further comment.)

If the team however feels they really want to go down that path, I will definitely not stand in their way.
(Please forgive if I state it like that - but that is honestly how I feel about it.)

By the Way:
Not even "Cotton" is native to North Amerika - even though it was known in Central America, Africa and Asia.
(The plants later massively cultivated in North America were brought by Europeans and originated from Africa originally as fas as I know.)

 

[OzzyKP]

It doesn’t seem like it would require complex or tedious mechanics. Grape planters are already available in Europe (and not in America), this would just reclassify other crops. Should be simple to do without significant balance or game play impacts.

I support the change.

 

[raystuttgart]

It doesn’t seem like it would require complex or tedious mechanics.

If we are just talking about the "Native Teach Professions" (to acquire Experts), then no tedious mechanics would be needed.
Then it would mainly be just effort for balancing.

But if we talk about also removing Bonus Ressources and Yields from map generation then definitely.

If we really want to have this authentic and accurate:
- Should Cotton Planters be removed from "Native Teach Professions"?
- Should Indigo Planters be removed from "Native Teach Professions"?
- Should Coffee Planters be removed from "Native Teach Professions"?
- Should Hemp Planters be removed from "Native Teach Professions"?
...

For me the answer is clearly no.
There has simply been too much effort been put into balancing it as nicely as it currently is.

The list of Experts you can get from Training by Native Villages will be much shorter than currently.
And it will also not be as nicely balanced as it is currently.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...

But if we talk about also removing Bonus Ressources and Yields from map generation then definitely.

There would be no need for that.

A bonus resource can be as abstracted as desired. e.g. a square with bonus cotton would not be a place where cotton already grows, but which would be ideal for establishing a cotton plantation.

 

[raystuttgart]

There would be no need for that.

Ok, but even if we just change the "Native Teach Professions", many players will complain:

"I never found a Native Village that teaches XXX? - Balancing is broken."
"Why can I get Expert XXX Planter in Europe, this is not realistic." (Even if it is historically.)
...

Been there already, done that, will not do it again.
Seriously guys, I have learned my lessons in the last 10 years of Civ4Col modding.

A) Give the Players what they expect and what feels authentic to them.
Even if it is not 100% historically correct / authentic.

B) Give the Players a nicely balanced gameplay first.
Even if it is simplified, because a game sometimes needs to.

 

[Guynemer]

If we are just talking about the "Native Teach Professions" (to acquire Experts), then no tedious mechanics would be needed.
Then it would mainly be just effort for balancing.

But if we talk about also removing Bonus Ressources and Yields from map generation then definitely.

If we really want to have this authentic and accurate:
- Should Cotton Planters be removed from "Native Teach Professions"?
- Should Indigo Planters be removed from "Native Teach Professions"?
- Should Coffee Planters be removed from "Native Teach Professions"?
- Should Hemp Planters be removed from "Native Teach Professions"?
...

For me the answer is clearly no.
There has simply been too much effort been put into balancing it as nicely as it currently is.

The list of Experts you can get from Training by Native Villages will be much shorter than currently.
And it will also not be as nicely balanced as it is currently.

I think you have drastically misunderstood my suggestion.

All the professions you listed above, other than coffee, would still be an option, because cotton, indigo, and hemp are all native to the New World as well as the Old. So you could train a free colonist in the New World, or obtain one from the docks, much like Farmers and Fisherman now.

Also, no need to take away bonus resources; I've always seen it as "this land is particularly well suited to sugar/coffee/whatever," not "this crop grows here naturally."

And native villages could instead teach units certain promotions instead of how to plant Old World crops.

 

[raystuttgart]

And native villages could instead teach units certain promotions instead of how to plant New World crops.

That sounds exactly like one of these tedious game mechanics I am worried about.

I will better stop discussing this.
I will just get annoyed and frustrated.

If the team wants to go down this path I will not stand in their way of course.
But they would have to do it without me then.

 

[Guynemer]

(sorry, that should have said Old World crops)

 

[lyciummusic]

While hemp was grown in Europe at that time cotton, sugar and coffee were always imported via silk/spice road from Middle East, South Asia and Eastern Africa. So sugar, cotton and coffee are not historical. Even their presence on native villages isn't, but acceptable gameplaywise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee

 

[Schmiddie]

To my view for the moment we should leave it as it is - however, if a kind of "tech tree" will ever be implemented, this will in any case be a big change in mod history because a lot of game mechanics will change. This might then be a good point in time to think about that again - for example there could be a tech or invention that enables crops in the New World that are non-native crops...just an idea.