Olmecs not a major civ

[Henri Christophe]

Even if they were conflated it's clear he wants the mythological version as a leader.

I have no problem if it come as a regular human being Quetzalcoalt. He got an amazing beard, it will be the first native american, in this game, to have a beard if he become a leader.

(eagle warriors are aztecs, not maya)

Cacaxtla paintings have the eagle warrior, are you sure it is exclusive from Aztecs?

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I have no problem if it come as a regular human being Quetzalcoalt. He got an amazing beard, it will be the first native american, in this game, to have a beard if he become a leader.

Breek, Brach, Breeck... Gilgamesh, Pericles, Harald Hardrada, Hammurabi, Basil II, and Frederick Barbarossa are in the game, what do you mean Quetzalcoatl would have been the first Leader in Civ 6 to have a beard?

 

[Henri Christophe]

Breek, Brach, Breeck... Gilgamesh, Pericles, Harald Hardrada, Hammurabi, Basil II, and Frederick Barbarossa are in the game, what do you mean Quetzalcoatl would have been the first Leader in Civ 6 to have a beard?

First native american to have a beard, beard is not that comun among native americans

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

First native american to have a beard, beard is not that comun among native americans

Oh... Facepalm self.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Sigh, you're right. I called them on using the Labys, a ceremonial Minoan symbol they used for the Mycenean Emblematic Unit, and the Knossos' red 'inverted' columns in their 'Mycenean' artwork, too.

It's an example of the problems of adding a group which has only marginally more information than the Olmecs: we don't even know if "Minos" was the name of a leader or his Title, we don't have any Cretan Unique Unit except the much later Cretan Archers. What we do have is a potential Emblematic Quarter, the Palace that shows up in every Minoan settlement as the major administrative, royal, religious and food storage point, and the Bull Dancers as a potential Religious/cultural phenomena (Bull Ring Quarter?). And we can put together a City List, only because the Greeks re-used most of the Cretan settlement names.

I think the Minoans would have been an inspired choice for Humankind, at least over the Myceneans who are another Greek mainland faction, since we would never get them in Civilization due to those issues of no leader, language etc. The closest thing for civ is Knossos continuing to be a city of Greece, which could realistically be a separate city-state.

As for an emblematic unit, considering they don't have to be combat units in the case of Harappan runner, why not the bull cult priests?

I...am not sold on that reading. Putting aside that it's a mayan painting (so best case scenario that's Kukulkan, not Quetzalcoatl), the Mayan like most mesoamerican people traditionally represented that deity as a feathered serpent , not a man. It's kind of the deity's defining trait. That painting also predates the Toltecs, as I understand it.

I'm pretty sure Kukulkan and Quetzacoatl are supposed to be the same deity, similar to how Jupiter for Rome, was the same as Zeus for Greece. Just the civilizations had different names for the same ones.

First native american to have a beard, beard is not that comun among native americans

Technically Montezuma in game has a small one, though I think that's historically inaccurate. Who knows how accurate that picture would be with a beard that large.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I'm pretty sure Kukulkan and Quetzacoatl are supposed to be the same deity, similar to how Jupiter for Rome, was the same as Zeus for Greece. Just the civilizations had different names for the same ones.

Once I read was Toltec's QUetzalcoalt who bring to the Maya land the faith in feathered snake, and also was the same Toltec's Quetzalcoalt who build up Chichen Itzá.
As far I remember the Popol Vuh, there isn't a Kulkucan in that old book, I really believe the feathered snake is something from central-mexico who come over mayapan after Toltec conquest.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Once I read was Toltec's QUetzalcoalt who bring to the Maya land the faith in feathered snake, and also was the same Toltec's Quetzalcoalt who build up Chichen Itzá.
As far I remember the Popol Vuh, there isn't a Kulkucan in that old book, I really believe the feathered snake is something from central-mexico who come over mayapan after Toltec conquest.

Mesoamerican civilizations are really intertwined with the same religions, warfare, culture etc. which is why feathered snake gods are worshiped by Toltecs, Maya and Aztecs.

The ceremonial ball game, tlachtli unique building for Aztecs in Civ 6, was also played by various people including the Maya since that was their unique building in Civ 4. The largest court is located in Chichen Itza.

The atlatls that you mentioned were used by every culture too in Mesoamerica for warfare. Of course in Civ 6 it's called the Hulche, a Maya term instead of Aztec name, and used by Maya as their UU.

 

[Evie]

I'm pretty sure Kukulkan and Quetzacoatl are supposed to be the same deity, similar to how Jupiter for Rome, was the same as Zeus for Greece. Just the civilizations had different names for the same ones.

Well, for one thing the Jupiter/Zeus thing is *not* wholly accurate either, so there is that. They are distinct deities with distinct cults (albeit likely originating from a common root predating both), but over the years, the Romans, being big time Greek fanboys, borrowed much of Greek mythology stories and assigned them to whichever of their gods best matched the Greek ones. And of course, the Greeks and the Romans both had the habit of identifying any foreign god they encountered with their own deities - hence Roman historians telling us that the chief god of the Germans is Mercury (presumably Odin), Greeks telling us that Ammun is Zeus, and Romans even trying to tell us the Hebrew worship Jupiter.

Bit of a similar situation here, too. The Feathered Serpent is a common root, but it developed distinct Mayan and Aztec (and plenty of other) branches, which adopted certain characteristics from each other due to the circulation of idea. BUT - that process occured toward the end of the Classic period and this is a c. 700 AD mural painting, so much of the hybridization of Quetzalcoatl and Kukulkan had yet to happen at that point. So the distinction between the Mayan deity (proto-Kukulkan) and the Nahuatl Quetzalcoatl is actually quite significant at the time the mural was made.

Cacaxtla paintings have the eagle warrior, are you sure it is exclusive from Aztecs?

Fairly so. They were an elite Aztec military order, not a generic term for people in clothing evoking birds.

But as I said, the practice of ceremonial association between men dressed like birds (or represented as birds in art) and warriors or priests is hardly unique to the actual Eagle Warriors - the birdman motif is one of the most widespread one in the Americas, found in art at least as far south as the Mayans and as far north as Cahokia and Etowah. This is likely what we have here: the birdman figure, representing a figure of great importance - not an eagle warrior.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Bit of a similar situation here, too. The Feathered Serpent is a common root, but it developed distinct Mayan and Aztec (and plenty of other) branches, which adopted certain characteristics from each other due to the circulation of idea. BUT - that process occured toward the end of the Classic period and this is a c. 700 AD mural painting, so much of the hybridization of Quetzalcoatl and Kukulkan had yet to happen at that point. So the distinction between the Mayan deity (proto-Kukulkan) and the Nahuatl Quetzalcoatl is actually quite significant at the time the mural was made.

Even so the whole concept of Quetzacoatl as a leader for any Mesoamerican civilization is dubious considering the most info we know from him is through a mythological story.

Even if there was a historical Toltec king called Quetzacoatl we have no information on him. Just the mythical priest king which they would have to base the abilities on.

 

[Evie]

And that's different from three-time civ leader Gilgamesh how, exactly?

At the end of the day, Toltecs and Ce Acatl Topiltzin (aka Quetzalcoatl) are very far down my priority list (as in we'd have to have hundreds of civs to include them), but your argument here seems to be a bit of a double standard considering Sumeria is already in (and keeps making it back).

 

[Henri Christophe]

Even so the whole concept of Quetzacoatl as a leader for any Mesoamerican civilization is dubious considering the most info we know from him is through a mythological story.

Even if there was a historical Toltec king called Quetzacoatl we have no information on him. Just the mythical priest king which they would have to base the abilities on.

Not just mythological stories, we do know a lot of things about Toltec rulers. Maybe I don't know that much but Wikipedia have a lot of informations and font of Codex and Cronists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ce_Acatl_Topiltzin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toltec_Empire

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

And that's different from three-time civ leader Gilgamesh how, exactly?

At the end of the day, Toltecs and Ce Acatl Topiltzin (aka Quetzalcoatl) are very far down my priority list (as in we'd have to have hundreds of civs to include them), but your argument here seems to be a bit of a double standard considering Sumeria is already in (and keeps making it back).

I never said the way that Sumeria with Gilgamesh is portrayed is ideal in the game either.

But at this point considering we have Gilgamesh, Dido and Kupe I'd rather not deal with any more at this point.

 

[Evie]

Seems more than a bit arbitrary (and unfair) to say those three can have mythological leaders but not anyone else.

Besides which, as distorted as the stories can be, there is a fair tendency for mythological kings and queens to turn out to have a basis in fact, even if the stories have been greatly distorted over time. I think we tend to dismiss them too easily because of the "mythology" label.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Seems more than a bit arbitrary (and unfair) to say those three can have mythological leaders but not anyone else.

Besides which, as distorted as the stories can be, there is a fair tendency for mythological kings and queens to turn out to have a basis in fact, even if the stories have been greatly distorted over time.

In a game centered around history, I'd personally rather historical figures for a civ than to go off of mythological stories when given the chance. The Maori could have easily had Hongi Hika as the leader.

 

[Evie]

The problem with that (among others) is, western historiography does tend to dismiss a lot of what is more in the nature of oral history as mythology (these being actually two distinct things). The assumption that anything not written down cannot be a basis for history and is just mythology is one that has increasingly (and rightly) been challenged.

Especially when one considers how popular history (and that's what civ is based on) is just as full of myths and legends as any oral history ever.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I like myths, myths are also based in histories.
I'm anxious to have our quick look in Quetzalcoalt leading the Toltec Empire

By the way, Hernan Cortés was also Quetzalcoalt, maybe Quetzalcoalt can be a title.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

By the way, Hernan Cortés was also Quetzalcoalt, maybe Quetzalcoalt can be a title.

The Aztecs thought he was Quetzalcoatl, not that he actually was. He clearly wasn't.

 

[Henri Christophe]

As said by the Popol Vuh profecy, the white and civilized kingdom who came from the north sea bring civilization is the Kulkucan, the Quetzalcoatl.

The white kingdom from farway land was the Toltec empire in Popol Vuh, but it is astonishing how it can be understood as Spain.

Cortez is Quetzalcoatl and Pedro de Alvarado is Tonatiuh

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

As said by the Popol Vuh profecy, the white and civilized kingdom who came from the north sea bring civilization is the Kulkucan, the Quetzalcoatl.

The white kingdom from farway land was the Toltec empire in Popol Vuh, but it is astonishing how it can be understood as Spain.

Cortez is Quetzalcoatl and Pedro de Alvarado is Tonatiuh

Well great there you go.
I guess all you have to do is have Hernan Cortez, speaking Spanish, leading the Toltecs in Civ 6.

 

[Evie]

The Cortes/god thing is questionable at best. There is a lot of scholarly writing that sees it as an after the fact justification employed to rationalize their defeat by the Spanish (and picked up by the Spanish because it was pretty useful to their purposes).