OMG! Hereditary Rule: My Missing Piece!!!

[futurehermit]

If you can avoid Hunting, you can keep building warriors for a very long time. So for 15 hammers, you get a . Much cheaper than a temple/theater/market/forge, etc. Cabert can have his Forge for , and I'll take 8 warriors for . Spread amongst different cities, wherever I need them most. Of course, those warriors come with a unit maintenance cost; but the income from a cottage is more than the maintenance of a unit. And when you look at it that way, it becomes clear why this strat is much better for a Financial leader: the profit margin (income from one cottage minus the costs of the warrior) is substantially larger.

peace,
lilnev

RIGHT! I think that hereditary rule is the way to go for a financial leader/CE

That being said, I think that drama might be the way to go for a philosophical leader/SE...Since the SE doesn't rely on the science slider for beakers, it can more easily afford to run the culture slider at 20-40% as Mutineer pointed out...

I think overall I should've rephrased my original post...it's not so much *hereditary rule* per se that I found to be so much more powerful, it was MORE HAPPINESS, LARGER CITIES that I found to be so much more powerful...!!!

 

[Nick53]

The nice thing about just self-researching monarchy instead of oracling it like Pete does is that I was able to get only GSs instead of GPs

Why why why?

 

[KMadCandy]

Nick53 asked "Why why why?" about "The nice thing about just self-researching monarchy instead of oracling it like Pete does is that I was able to get only GSs instead of GPs"

i'm not futurehermit but this is my interpretation of what he meant...

the oracle is great since it gets you a free tech. but the oracle is crap since it gives you great prophet points for the rest of eternity. early game, great prophets can be wonderful. later game, they're not the kind of great people that you generally want and getting one puts me in a bad mood. they won't pop for good techs so i just end up settling them, and yeah a settled prophet is a help for the city but i wanted something else, you know?

there are plenty of games when i build the oracle since i do want a free tech. in an ideal world i build it in a city that i don't expect to have a ton of GPPs so that it won't be pumping out great people in general to contaminate the pool. i hardly ever get an ideal world tho. heck i even make shrines with a sigh, since they generate prophet points and thinking about that GPP contamination makes me pout, even tho the money helps sooooo much.

if i do want great prophets early game, they're the easiest kind to self-make without wonders. well, if you have a religion. just make a temple and assign a priest. that's perfect since it's temporary, as soon as the GP appears you turn the priest off and you're good to go. oh and GEs are easy to get without wonders too, once you get metal-casting.

 

[slowcar]

bigger cities cost more upkeep. more troops cost more upkeep.
if you want to go on offense you need a lot more troops in total if you rely on HR which makes wars a lot more expensive.
I like HR for the +1/+2 happiness but i would not try to stuff my cities with warriors as each one costs the same as your actual troops that you can use to capture things.

 

[Dirk1302]

I tried self researching monarchy on snaaty's isolated start since alphabet didn't seem that useful and soi could take MC (for Colossus ) from oracle. Turned out that with some dedicated early cottage working i still had alphabet 500 BC which would be early enough anywayon emperor. So researching monarchy seems to be ok even on non isolated starts.

I always try to chop oracle in second city and accept the money if i don't make it in time. Further i don't build shrines anymore in capital. GP pollution is just awful. Completely ruins the great synergie of GL,NE, 2 extra GS and pacificsm. This Colossus wonder is great btw, going to try for it again if i have 3+ coastal cities.

 

[cabert]

If you can avoid Hunting, you can keep building warriors for a very long time. So for 15 hammers, you get a . Much cheaper than a temple/theater/market/forge, etc. Cabert can have his Forge for , and I'll take 8 warriors for . Spread amongst different cities, wherever I need them most. Of course, those warriors come with a unit maintenance cost; but the income from a cottage is more than the maintenance of a unit. And when you look at it that way, it becomes clear why this strat is much better for a Financial leader: the profit margin (income from one cottage minus the costs of the warrior) is substantially larger.

peace,
lilnev

the forge not only gives happiness remember
you want production too, don't you?

Nevertheless I can see that a size 12 city is better than a size 8 city, but (yes there is a but):
- if you want to reach domination, you need to go to war
- if you want to go to war, you need to produce troops
- if you don't have a forge, you are lower on production
- if you produce happy warriors, you don't produce real troops
- a forge is whippable for 4 or 3 or 2 pop, while archer/warriors/other horsehockey units can be whipped for 1 pop only.
- if you run HR you don't run rep, which can (for a SE) be painful.

SO

I stick with my lowly forge (whipped for 3 pop), then a bit later a market (whipped for 4 pop), making my growth faster even if not going as high as an HR growth.

 

[Snaaty]

I must say that I tend to agree more with Cabert (must be because of my playstyle...)

But what is obvious is the fact, that big (or even huge) cities under her.rule with cottages aren´t superiour to average cized cities when running FE and using the whip:

Everybody can check this out by having a look at the actual saves (lib checkpoint) in the game going on here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208028

Dirk, Shyule and Giaur were running CE economies and growing their cities quite big (Giaur is a little back concerning city size), Multineer also grew big cities (he even has the biggest city if I remember correct) and uses hybrid economy.


I did what I always do:

Pure FE (with 4 early cottages to help to bring up economy...), extreme whipping and very small cities (due to the whipping fact, size between 3 and 7 on average)


But when you have a look at the lib saves, you can see that only Dirk´s research rate is higer then mine (and that by only a few beakers, Multineer´s is also high, but he is actually a in golden age) and concerning the actual tech situation I think that, when the game would be played by all players up to 1200 AD, the tech situation is also more or less equal

Still the main advantage of FE with whipping (and that means no big or huge cities) has been said quite often and is this:

YOU ARE EXTREMELY FLEXIBLE

So this may be the reason , why I think that domination is easier the space-race (has been discussed in another thread:http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=204197&page=8), because with the FE concept you can whip/draft/build out an army in an extremely short period of time (medival: 10 - 15 turns, 15 cav, 10 muskets, 6 catas; endgame: about 20 turns, 60+ modern armors and some artillery)

 

[Dirk1302]

^I agree that FE is generally very strong, i used to play this kind of economy also for space races ,some early cottages if you don't have a goldmine are indeed a good jumpstart. But i sometimes like to just play CE to compare and be comfortable with both economies. Especially with financial leaders i find it hard to resist early river cottages. But it sure hurts in the whipping and flexibility department.

 

[futurehermit]

@nick: you want GSs to lightbulb your way to liberalism (phil-paper-ed-lib) and chemistry (after pp).

@all: i played around with her-rule a bit more last night and had great tech but bad production.

so my final conclusion is this:

her-rule + ce for financial and space race

fe and whip for domination

going back to domination...and struggling

 

[Dirk1302]

^^ Generally i agree, but you need some tech also for FE so cities growing to decent size assigning some early specialists and still working tiles is not bad either. Highly dependent on number of happy resources you have i think.

 

[futurehermit]

^^oh, don't get me wrong, i know you need research phases (working scientists). like acid said, the FE/SE goes in bursts (specialists then production then specialists then production, etc.)