On creating a Province (take 3)

[ravensfire]

Well, the same article has now been polled twice. In just over 6 hours from now, it will fail for the second time.

Let's not toss the dead horse on the road a third time, and try to fix this thing.

Article as polled:
"The domestic leader/equiv., is responsible for conducting and leading discussions on provincial boundaries. Final proposals to be voted upon by the people. All boundariesmust be defined in a timely manner. Provinces with fewer than 3 cities are run by domestic or equivalent. Governors are appointed by domestic/equiv. if a province is created mid-term, and can be subject to a confirmation poll. First province is all known territory and is run immediately by an initial governor."

This was from a series of bullet points I made in the initial article creation thread. We ran a poll earlier to that with some different options on creating provinces, this narrows down considerably what should, and should not, be in the article.

From that poll, discussions and provinces come from the Director of Infrastructure, who will also appoint the Governor of any new province created mid-term.

Some comments from the poll threads:
"According to this Governor is not an elected position, but appointed by the domestic leader/equiv. This should only be the case when a province is formed mid-term or the position is unfilled/becomes vacant (she says trying to remember what the poll actually said)."

"How can this incoherent passage be winning approval? Can anyone tell me what the heck it means? There are conflicting ideas, bad grammar, and misguided intent all wrapped up into one run-on paragraph.

Demand more of your nation's document, $COUNTRY_NAME. This one needs to be burned to the ground and reborn."

"I suggest we stop this one early and fix the obvious problem with the appointment clause. It was clearly meant to say the domestic leader appoints a new governor if a province is created mid-term, but that is not what it actually says and this kind of problem is the type which will tie us up in a month of JRs."

Substantially the same in the second thread.

Let's rewrite this and get it done.

-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

Constitution:
-- Make sure the Director of Infrastructure clause includes "leads discussions on creating new provinces as needed."

Reasoning: It's always good to keep the duties of a particular office defined in one place as much as possible.

New Article:
"Provinces are a group of cities, defined by a border, that are controlled by a Governor. Plans for new provinces are created through discussion and presented to the people for final approval. The creation of provinces should be done in a timely manner. Provinces that are created mid-term and have fewer than 3 cities are under control of the Director of Infrastructure. Once a province contains three or more cities, it must be placed under control of a Governor. If the province was created mid-term, the Governor for the remainder of that term is appointed by the Director of Instrastructure, subject to a confirmation poll. The first province contains all known land, and is controlled by the elected Governor.

Comments? Please - I'm medicated enough from this freaking flu that there is a bit of wandering there.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Double Stack]

That sound good. I would suggest that the President be the first Governor for the first province until the second one is formed. Then the Governors may be appointed for both.

 

[Black_Hole]

Constitution:
-- Make sure the Director of Infrastructure clause includes "leads discussions on creating new provinces as needed."

Reasoning: It's always good to keep the duties of a particular office defined in one place as much as possible.

New Article:
"Provinces are a group of cities, defined by a border, that are controlled by a Governor. Plans for new provinces are created through discussion and presented to the people for final approval. The creation of provinces should be done in a timely manner. Provinces that are created mid-term and have fewer than 3 cities are under control of the Director of Infrastructure. Once a province contains three or more cities, it must be placed under control of a Governor. If the province was created mid-term, the Governor for the remainder of that term is appointed by the Director of Instrastructure, subject to a confirmation poll. The first province contains all known land, and is controlled by the elected Governor.

Comments? Please - I'm medicated enough from this freaking flu that there is a bit of wandering there.

-- Ravensfire

it might make more sense to have the minister of expansion make the borders instead of infrastructure...

 

[Strider]

Constitution:
-- Make sure the Director of Infrastructure clause includes "leads discussions on creating new provinces as needed."

Reasoning: It's always good to keep the duties of a particular office defined in one place as much as possible.

New Article:
"Provinces are a group of cities, defined by a border, that are controlled by a Governor. Plans for new provinces are created through discussion and presented to the people for final approval. The creation of provinces should be done in a timely manner. Provinces that are created mid-term and have fewer than 3 cities are under control of the Director of Infrastructure. Once a province contains three or more cities, it must be placed under control of a Governor. If the province was created mid-term, the Governor for the remainder of that term is appointed by the Director of Instrastructure, subject to a confirmation poll. The first province contains all known land, and is controlled by the elected Governor.

Comments? Please - I'm medicated enough from this freaking flu that there is a bit of wandering there.

-- Ravensfire

To much un-needed information, the constitution already says that govonors are elected to head a province, there is no need to repeat that again. Also, what the hell is "The first province contains all known land, and is controlled by the elected Governor," suppose to mean? Does this imply that there is only one province throughout the entire game?

Should be the following:

A province is a group of cities, defined by a border based on geographical features. The formation of new provinces are created through public discussion and presented to the citizenry for final approval. The Domestic Minister shall decide when a new province is needed. Provinces that are created mid-term and have fewer than 3 cities are under control of the Domestic Minister, or a Domestic appointed mayor. Once a province contains three or more cities, it must be placed under control of a Governor. If the province was created mid-term, the Governor for the remainder of that term is appointed by the Domestic Minister or the current mayor becomes Governor, subject to a confirmation poll.

 

[Black_Hole]

you always seem to be able to post corrections in such a nice way strider...

 

[Strider]

you always seem to be able to post corrections in such a nice way strider...

I've never been a people person.

Nonetheless, I am hoping to soon make either of these obsolete and un-needed. I'm currently working on a system that will make the more corrupt provinces, well... uncorrupt. Don't expect it untill another week or so though, but that should still be plenty of time. I doubt were going to be creating a new province before the game even starts.

 

[ravensfire]

Black Hole - It was a case of pick one - I kinda like the Expansion though - we're expanding our sphere of control.

Strider - The "First province" stuff is there to cover a JR from last DG. Good point about the repeating of Governor duties, and just after I said I was trying to avoid it. Other aspects of the your rewrite I disagree with. I prefer the "create in a timely manner" vs "when the official wants to" approach. It's easier to hold a person accountable with a timely manner. That's one of those "I don't know how to describe it, but I'll know it when I see it" situations. I'm pretty darn sure that most people will know when it's time to create a province. I don't want that to be at the whim of an official.

Yank the mayor stuff out. Mayors are ceremonial posts. They may be delegated authority, but never, ever responsibility. If the Director wants to have the mayor control the city - that's fine, but the posted instructions need to be from the Director. Likewise, when they have to appoint a Governor, the Director should be looking at everyone that's interested.

With the edits suggested:
""Provinces are a group of cities, defined by a border. Plans for new provinces are created through discussion and presented to the people for final approval. The creation of provinces should be done in a timely manner. Provinces that are created mid-term and have fewer than 3 cities are under control of the Director of Expansion. Once a province contains three or more cities, it must be placed under control of a Governor. If the province was created mid-term, the Governor for the remainder of that term is appointed by the Director of Expansion, subject to a confirmation poll. The first province contains all known land, and is controlled by the elected Governor."

-- Ravensfire

 

[Strider]

Black Hole - It was a case of pick one - I kinda like the Expansion though - we're expanding our sphere of control.

Strider - The "First province" stuff is there to cover a JR from last DG. Good point about the repeating of Governor duties, and just after I said I was trying to avoid it. Other aspects of the your rewrite I disagree with. I prefer the "create in a timely manner" vs "when the official wants to" approach. It's easier to hold a person accountable with a timely manner. That's one of those "I don't know how to describe it, but I'll know it when I see it" situations. I'm pretty darn sure that most people will know when it's time to create a province. I don't want that to be at the whim of an official.

-- Ravensfire

A citizen can create a discussion over the formation of a new province at any time, an official has very little control over that.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Have we considered the approach of simply not allowing new provinces to form until the beginning of a new term? Thus we could hold elections in the normal cycle for their first governor.

Not sure what we gain by creating them in mid term.

 

[YNCS]

The first province contains all known land, and is controlled by the elected Governor.

This is too ambiguous. I know what you're trying to say, but the way this sentence reads, after we discover satellites and know all the map, the entire world becomes the first province.

I suggest the sentence be rewritten:

The first province contains all known land until four cities are established. Upon establishing the fourth city, the Director of Expansion shall establish a second province and appoint a governor for the first province.

 

[DaveShack]

We're electing a governor already, no need to break with that tradition.

The all known land clause is only there because in a previous game someone tried to argue that there was no province because there was no border. How about this fragment instead:

At the beginning of the game, there is a single province containing all cities.

 

[Octavian X]

Have we considered the approach of simply not allowing new provinces to form until the beginning of a new term? Thus we could hold elections in the normal cycle for their first governor.

Not sure what we gain by creating them in mid term.

That's a good idea. I'm sure the Director of Expansion could handle the extra burden for a few weeks.

Plus, it allows us to lessen the wordcount of our constition a wee bit.

 

[ravensfire]

YNCS - how about "Until provinces are established, all known lands will be considered as a single province."

Bill_in_PDX - Hmmm, I kinda like that. The only issue I could see is if we get aggressive in either conquering or settling, and have a pretty good number of cities not in provinces. By creating provinces mid-term, and appointing Governors, the workload on the Director of Expansion is reduced and better focus is given to the development of those new cities.

-- Ravensfire

 

[YNCS]

"Until provinces are established, all known lands will be considered as a single province."

That looks good.

 

[Provolution]

We also need a provincial law for overseas naval bases, minor ports and so on.
I suggest to group such overseas domains under a overseas Colonial Administrator.
This would be key when considering islands, treaty ports and so on.

 

[Octavian X]

*bump*

To propose a general article:

Article X. Provinces shall defined as a group of cities. The creation of a province shall be handled by discussion and polling, led by the Director of Expansion, and should be handled in a timely, effcient manner. Governors may be appointed to newly-formed provinces by the President mid-term at his discretion. Cities not within a province, or in a new province without a governor are controlled by the Director of Expansion.

 

[Strider]

Or we could just use the one I made for the tradational government and modify it.

A province shall be formed by a collection of cities, based on similiar geographic, ethnic, and economic backgrounds. The land, as seen on the city-screen, and all land inbetween shall make up the province. The Formation of a Province will be handled VIA discussions and polling, and must be handled in a timely manner. The Culture Minister manages all cities that are not placed under the domain of a province. If the province was created mid-term, the Governor for the remainder of that term is appointed by the President.

 

[Double Stack]

To add to Octavian X post, I like to define cities without a province to have a general guideline to allow planning for new province. Looking at American history, there were many cities established in a "territory" prior to establishing states. So this idea is translated here.

Article X. Provinces shall defined as a group of cities. The creation of a province shall be handled by discussion and polling, led by the Director of Expansion, and should be handled in a timely, effcient manner. Governors may be appointed to newly-formed provinces by the President mid-term at his discretion. Cities not within a province, or in a new province without a governor are controlled by the Director of Expansion. Cities not within a province are considered to be in a territory which contains potential locations of new cities. Once these locations form cities and are nearing completion or are completed, a province may be formed and a Governor appointed.

(Italics is my additions)

 

[ravensfire]

To finish this off - using Octavian's version with slight changes:

Proposed Poll - Provinces

Do you approve of the following article?

Article X. Provinces shall defined as a group of cities. The creation of a province shall be handled by discussion and polling, led by the Director of Expansion, and should be handled in a timely, effcient manner. Governors may be appointed to newly-formed provinces by the Director of Expantion mid-term at their discretion. Cities not within a province, or in a new province without a governor are controlled by the Director of Expansion. Until provinces are established, all known lands will be considered as a single province.

Yes
No
Abstain

Poll will run for three days.

-- Ravensfire