On Scandinavia / Vikings

[Dennis_Moore]

Margaret I the Great, Danish - leader of all Scandinavia

Ah, King No-Pants.

 

[Lacaixa]

Firstly, I think the ' Empire 'tag sits poorly with many civs in the game. Second, I really don't mind whether it's Viking or Scandinavia as it happens. I'm just really surprised that so many of you find it offensive and I struggle to understand it. I suppose the acid test would be a petition to Firaxis to have the Vikings removed if you are confident that Scandinavia would automatically take its place in front of other contenders.

 

[Traitorfish]

Firstly, I think the ' Empire 'tag sits poorly with many civs in the game.

Well, that's more to do with the nature of the game- even if there was never an historical empire, in the game it will be. Still, I think it'd be better if they added some variation to the title, depending on the leader- Victoria would have an Empire, Louis would have a Kingom, Washington would have a Republic, Genghis Khan would have a Khanate, Mehmed would have a Sultanate, etc. Maybe they could add some sort of coding which varies your title depending on your civics (although at 3125 different Civic combinations, they'd obviously have to have some share...)

Second, I really don't mind whether it's Viking or Scandinavia as it happens. I'm just really surprised that so many of you find it offensive and I struggle to understand it. I suppose the acid test would be a petition to Firaxis to have the Vikings removed if you are confident that Scandinavia would automatically take its place in front of other contenders.

Well, for the record, I'm not offended- I'm not Scandinavian, after all- I'm just attempting to explain why others are.
And you seem to be missing the point- it's not that the Viking civ should be removed and a Scandinavian one added, as such, it's that the Viking civ is the Scandinavian civ and so should be treated with more historical accuracy. "Viking" is a very narrow term which never applied to the whole of Norse culture even when there were Vikings, and Ragnar is largely famous for being the archetypal Viking chief rather than a great leader.
As I've said, Ragnar leading the Vikings is as poor a choice as Billy the Kid leading the Cowboys. Sure, both Billy the Kid and Cowboys existed, but it doesn't that it's the only aspect of American history that is worth including in the game.

 

[Lacaixa]

I don't think I'm missing the point . If you suppress the Viking element to be more historically accurate is the resulting Scandinavian civ ' meaty' enough to warrant inclusion. Has it enough flavour without a prominant role for the Vikings.

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't think I'm missing the point . If you suppress the Viking element to be more historically accurate is the resulting Scandinavian civ ' meaty' enough to warrant inclusion. Has it enough flavour without a prominant role for the Vikings.

As much as can be represented in the game, yes. The Viking element would still be included, as the UU an UB could quite easily be from the Viking period- renaming the Berserker "Viking" would suffice and the Trading Post is a decent UB- and it would be quite possible to have an early medieval leader, Canute being the obvious choice. That's about as much flavour as any other civ has at present.
The thing is, if you're going to put forward the argument that the Viking period was the only period of Scandinavian history of note then they don't deserve to be in the game at all- it was less than 300 years, after all- not just in the form of some stereotypical representation with a semi-legendary leader.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

I'd add a Faeroe island city, Greenland city, Aland island city, 1 or 2 from Estonia, 1 from Shetland islands, and 1 city from the Gotland islands. Along with Finland. Also maybe a few Lapland cities as well

The only city on Gotland is Visby, which could well be included; it was an important trade centre during both the Viking Age and later on. As for Lapland, neither Kiruna and Boden (in Swedish Lapland) or Kirkenes (in Norwegian Lapland) or Rovaniemi (in Finnish Lapland) were founded until fairly late, so I wouldn't really want to have them included. Furthermore, the Lapps keep saying that they are not Scandinavians, so they would probably mot care to have cities in their area included in the city list for a Scandinavian civilization. (Even though the people in thsoe cities are not Sami, except for a small minority.)

 

[SkippyT]

I suppose I just can't understand why you seem to be ashamed of the Vikings. They were a very successful people that were ' of their time' . My seven year old son has been ' doing ' the Vikings at school recently. Yes he came back with his paper mashe helmet complete with toilet roll horns but he also knew about Viking civilisation, runes etc. I don't expect he'll come back one day and tell me about the Kalmar Union. The fact is the Vikings are probably the most recognised warriors in world history. To expect Firaxis to neglect this is naive.

I understand that perfectly, and I've stated many times that I think Canute the great (a Viking) should be the first leader of a Scandinavian civilization. The Viking age was the golden age of Scandinavia, and that's not something that should be neglected. And by the way, I don't feel ashamed that my ancestors were Vikings who sailed from Norway and Denmark all over to Iceland, which is IMO an achievement that should be remembered.

No Vikigns were Settlers and Explorers. They just had to conquer new lands to live in as space was running out.

In fact most Vikings were settlers and explorers even though most of what they're famous for has everything to do with how tough they were on the battlefield and how superior they were to all warriors on the Earth at the time. The fact is that the vast majority wasn't like that. Most of the Vikings just wanted to live in peace and harmony, worship their gods, provide for their families and get new lands. By doing that, most went to Russia or the Baltic area (Swedes), others went westwards to Iceland and the Shetland islands (Norwegians) while some others went south and west to Normandy or England (Danes). Others fought for land with blood and iron and those men form the existing "Viking empire" in Civilization. That is such a narrow view.

 

[Onagan]

But okay! Back on topic. I'll take a short city list in a rush now so people will get my idea of how the Scandinavian empire should look like:

Copenhagen (capital)
Stockholm
Trondheim
Bergen
Uppsala
Kaupang
Århus
Oslo
Uppsala
Roskilde
Reykjavik
Göteborg (Gothenburg)
Odense
Ålborg
Luleå
Hedeby
Thingvellir
Kalmar
Hedeby
Birka
Stavanger
Malmö
...

We have 7 Danish ones, 7 Swedish, 5 Norwegian and 2 Icelandic. That's quite fair isn't it? The Danes get the capital since Copenhagen was the most important city within the Kalmar Union. Maybe Trondheim (Niðarós) or Stockholm would be better, I'm not sure.

I don't like the list, Danmark has to many cities in the list, and Uppsala twice? also i would move Stockholm up a spot, as it's the largest city, and the capital of the largest country in that region.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

I don't think I'm missing the point . If you suppress the Viking element to be more historically accurate is the resulting Scandinavian civ ' meaty' enough to warrant inclusion. Has it enough flavour without a prominant role for the Vikings.

Well, are Mali or the Khmer "meaty" enough? If it comes to comic book-style "coolness", I don't suppose they are, but I think they merit inclusion. Mansa is fun to have in the game, and I am certain the Khmer will be as well. So are the Scandinavians, and not only for the Viking period. Its constituent parts have been quite important in history at times and produced many famous people. Some of them are pretty well-known outside Scandinavia, for example Margaret the Union Queen, Gustavus Adolphus, Henrik Ibsen, August Strindberg, Carl Linnaeus, Hans Christian Örsted, Ingmar Bergman, Dag Hammarskjöld, Thor Heyerdahl, Alfred Nobel, Jenny Lind, Hans Christian Andersen, Anders Celsius, Linus Thorvalds, Tove Jansson, Fridtjof Nansen, Gustavus Vasa, Charles XII, John Ericsson, Niels Bohr, Raoul Wallenberg, Folke Bernadotte, Lars von Trier, Victor Borge and Greta Garbo. (And the Icelandic saga writer Snorri Sturlason should be better known outside Scandinavia than he is.) Rename the "Viking Civilization" the Scandinavian civilization, rename the berserker unit the viking unit, include a later leader too (beside Canute, who should replace Ragnar the Snotnose), keep the trading post as unique building and replace the silly horned helmet with one of the more historical ones, and you will, in my opinion, get a civ which is more correct and still should be fun to play.

 

[Traitorfish]

Ragnar the Snotnose

Just out of interest, how many of these names are actually real? I've heard Heary Breeches, which seems plausible if a bit off for a warlord, Furry Pants, which sounds like a mistranslation of some sort, and now Snot Nose, which I can only imagine is a personal nickname for him...

 

[Dennis_Moore]

Just out of interest, how many of these names are actually real? I've heard Heary Breeches, which seems plausible if a bit off for a warlord, Furry Pants, which sounds like a mistranslation of some sort, and now Snot Nose, which I can only imagine is a personal nickname for him...

Who knows, the nicknames are part of his semi-legendary status.




On that note I have another suggestion for a Viking leader, Eric the Rod, aptly named för having the biggest "rod" on Greenland.

 

[Dennis_Moore]

I don't like the list, Danmark has to many cities in the list, and Uppsala twice? also i would move Stockholm up a spot, as it's the largest city, and the capital of the largest country in that region.

Yeah, Stockholm is after all the self-proclaimed capital of Scandinavia.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Vikings are Scandinavian.

therefore, "Viking" Civ =~= "Scandinavia" Civ.

 

[Onagan]

Yeah, Stockholm is after all the self-proclaimed capital of Scandinavia.

And worth that title. I know I'm right now <250 meters away from it

 

[cybrxkhan]

just a random thought, you guys know that have a "Viking Invasion" expansion pack to the original Total War?

 

[Traitorfish]

Vikings are Scandinavian.

therefore, "Viking" Civ =~= "Scandinavia" Civ.

So a Cowboy civ would be a perfectly legitimate representation of America? After all, Cowboys are American so Cowboy Civ =~= American Civ...
The point was that "Vikings" were not a civilisation, a nation or even a culture, they were Scandinavians who went raiding- and, if you stretch it, trading and settling- just as Cowboys were not a civ, just Americans who herded cows.

just a random thought, you guys know that have a "Viking Invasion" expansion pack to the original Total War?

Yeah, but A) those really were Vikings B) so what? and C) it was the second Total War- the original one was set in Japan and had a "Mongol Invasion" expansion pack.

 

[cybrxkhan]

So a Cowboy civ would be a perfectly legitimate representation of America? After all, Cowboys are American so Cowboy Civ =~= American Civ...
The point was that "Vikings" were not a civilisation, a nation or even a culture, they were Scandinavians who went raiding- and, if you stretch it, trading and settling- just as Cowboys were not a civ, just Americans who herded cows.

that wasn't my point, my point was saying to those who don't like the idea of switching to a Scandinavian civ that it is okay, the two are similar enough.

so, therefore, I apologize if my statement has caused any conveniences, and my hope was to share my view that switching to a Scandinavian civ would be a good and easy to do idea.

Yeah, but A) those really were Vikings B) so what? and C) it was the second Total War- the original one was set in Japan and had a "Mongol Invasion" expansion pack.

yes, but, A. I just brought up a very random thought. B. This means that Vikings did wear horned helms, according to the box art, and... C. They didn't put Vikings in Medieval Total War II. Ha.

 

[Traitorfish]

that wasn't my point, my point was saying to those who don't like the idea of switching to a Scandinavian civ that it is okay, the two are similar enough.

so, therefore, I apologize if my statement has caused any conveniences, and my hope was to share my view that switching to a Scandinavian civ would be a good and easy to do idea.

Ah. Yet again, I entirely misunderstood what somebody meant... I really need to be more careful about this...

yes, but, A. I just brought up a very random thought. B. This means that Vikings did wear horned helms, according to the box art, and... C. They didn't put Vikings in Medieval Total War II. Ha.

A)Fair enough, B) because box-art never lies? and C) poor vikings...

 

[Rusty Edge]

I always preferred the winged helmet to the horned ones, in the tradition of "The Mighty Thor"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_(Marvel_Comics)

 

[Rusty Edge]

GRRRR.

Let's try this