Opening Piety?

[reddishrecue]

So you start with a monument get the piety opener, build the shrine fast, organized religion, theocracy,..., to the reformation belief. Afterwards, one gets philosophy for the temples and theology for the grand temple.
Has anyone seen this opener work in BNW? Has anyone failed with the piety opener? Has anyone tried it?

 

[redwings1340]

On emperor below I think it's valid to hybrid open piety while filling out another policy tree in tandem with it, but on immortal/deity at least for me I've been too far behind to make it work out. On higher difficulties, the AI has a ton of religious bonuses, and religion really works the best when you don't have to compete with the other AIs for spreading it places.

Overall though, piety isn't a great tree, and as your first policy it's very bad. As your second it can work.

 

[MattZed]

My preferred Maya build is to beeline Theology and use your the first free great person to rush Hagia Sofia. (which should be the enhancer prophet, leaving the finisher prophet to spread the faith) The hard part here is timing the NC; if you don't build it, you're behind on science, but, if you build it, you delay your second/third city, and you're not going Liberty, which together really hurts the Mayan ICS goodness.

My personal way of balancing that all out is to take God-King as a pantheon; the extra production helps getting those vital early structures out, while the science helps get toward the ever-so-important Theology. Getting the Great Library (for Philosophy, probably) can really help out with a high production start, but it's a gamble, especially on higher difficulties.

My main problem with going pure piety is that it tends to favor going wide, but going wide without Liberty can be rough. If I'm playing Egypt, for instance, I'll take a Liberty-Piety mix, taking the left side of Liberty for rapid expansion and then taking Piety to get Burial Tombs up and eventually get a reformation belief.

 

[Autoclave]

My problem with piety is that i need to find growth alternatives to tradition. If I don't do that i will have underdeveloped cities with mediocre science and production. One particular situation when i did have success with byzantium piety start was when I had 3 maritime CS and some barbs to farm influence with. This helped me grow my cities while advancing through piety tree.

There are certain starts, difficulty level and neighbours that i would strongly advice against piety start.

The policy that gives second pantheon is quite terrible, by the time you take it, you will not have other religious followers in your city yet, and who knows what the AI will decide to take as a pantheon for his religion. Compare with tradition +2 food and +10% growth, or with liberty free settler.

 

[Silverman6083]

In my most recent game, as Persia, I did splendid with a Liberty/Piety blend. Granted I had Mt. Kilash, Desert Folklore, & later Mt. Sinai, but I got 3 policies in Liberty, Piety & Organized Religion, finished Liberty, finished Piety, got Glory of God, and am now sailing with over 100 fpt, Zoroastrianism as world religion, & in about 20 cities. Liberty + Piety with a happiness oriented religion is fun...

 

[benjamin28]

The policy that gives second pantheon is quite terrible [...]. Compare with tradition +2 food and +10% growth, or with liberty free settler.

There has been a lot of debate about the Piety tree in this forum. But what Autoclave has written is THE key. You may have into account some fine strategies with Piety, but you have to remember what economists call the opportunity cost: what you're losing when you choose something.

For example, the Organized Religion SP that gives +1 extra faith per shrine and temple is good: it effectively doubles your faith production in the early game. But, once you get your pantheon, it will take a lot of turns until you can found your own religion, so the bonus is not inmediatly useful.
Compare this to the Tradition SP that gives free culture buildings (saves production time, applies to 4 cities, saves money and helps you get SP faster). When you select Organized Religion, you're losing the Tradition bonus.

Even worse, there a lot of situational Piety SPs (the one that gives you discount to faith-based things, which has no use until you found a religion) and a useless one (the one that gives a second pantheon. It's simply terrible, especially if it applies to resources that your cities have not. And you have to wait a lot of turns until a second religion appear in your cities).

So, as other users have said, I only recommend the Piety tree as a second choice and only in some specific situations. I really hope Firaxis will improve Piety in future patches.

 

[reddishrecue]

The policy that gives second pantheon is quite terrible, by the time you take it, you will not have other religious followers in your city yet, and who knows what the AI will decide to take as a pantheon for his religion. Compare with tradition +2 food and +10% growth, or with liberty free settler.

Can't you get the feed the world pantheon, along with fertility rites that would be similar to the landed elite social policy. The only difference is that you pay more for it (-2 gold for the temple and the shrine but +2 food from each). Sun god or goddess of the hunt are also good pantheons that don't provide that much faith as the other pantheons, but do provide the food that you don't obtain from landed elite.

 

[GoStu]

I'm usually pretty skeptical of early Piety. It's not a terrible tree for what it does, but there's a quick two-question test I have to ask myself before I sink deeply into it.

1) Is my Religion good? Is it going to be a core part of my game plan?
2) Am I going to play wide?

I never, never, freaking NEVER consider it for an opener. A wide empire benefits most from the tree (and religion in general).

Build Shrines and Temples twice as fast: good for those buildings in new cities.
Cheaper purchases on units and buildings: better with more buildings, and later cities. Tall empire often has its pagodas/mosques/ whatever bought before this policy, or at least will wrap up purchasing them while they're cheap.
Religious Tolerance: when expanded into a new area, lets you exploit a pantheon more appropriate to that area. (worthless when tall and staying confined, usually)
Gold from Temples: useful anywhere about equally. Generally pays for shrine and temple in every city.
Reformation Belief: most are pretty good. If all the good ones were gone, I'd probably skip this though as the closer isn't that nice. I'd sooner just take my pick of what's left at a later time than suffer to have first pick.
Extra Faith per shrine and Temple: obviously best with more shrines and temples. In a 4-city build this is pathetic and is only +8 fpt!

 

[chazzycat]

right now i only take piety as Byzantium and only if there is no decent faith pantheon/natural wonder/religious CS nearby.

IMO they need to change that policy that gives the 2nd pantheon belief. That is just garbage...it rarely does anything of any significance, and it just kills the momentum of the tree. the rest of the policies aren't that bad and there are some decent synergies, but having a dead policy in the middle just kills it.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

With piety opener, semi fast expansion and shrine building you can get a religion even on deity without any other way to get faith.

However the main Point with piety is that it make religious game much easier.

Opening piety first is not bad, however you basicly have to found a religion is you do pick it but it is not to hard to do if you pick it anyway and getting a religion is very good.

 

[sendos]

I only consider opening piety if I am Mayans. Then you can build the UB in just 3-5 turns. Since faith generation is dependent on wide empires, piety only works with liberty and not so well with tradition or on its own.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Piety does need a boost for early use (add +2 faith from capital to the opener?.. let Religious Tolerance increase the pressure of other religions in your cities... and give ALL pantheons with 1+founder.. Theocracy can increase the pressure of your religion/Pantheon in your cities)

Honor also needs a boost for early use (fast built barracks should be earlier... and give some additional benefits other than happiness to those buildings.. some maintenance free units)

and to a lesser degree Liberty

 

[joncnunn]

So you start with a monument get the piety opener, build the shrine fast, organized religion, theocracy,..., to the reformation belief. Afterwards, one gets philosophy for the temples and theology for the grand temple.
Has anyone seen this opener work in BNW? Has anyone failed with the piety opener? Has anyone tried it?

Yup; overall not as good as standard tradition playing tall. And also players who like to found wide reported it not as good as standard liberty playing wide.

As to making the best of Piety; the main value of the free great prophet absolutely depends upon you getting it before you have already enhanced your religion. This indicates that a suitable pure faith pantheon is actually a counter-indicator to Piety.

The primary niche case for Piety is when there is no suitable faith based pantheon nor religious city state near you and you are on too high a difficulty level to reliably build Stonehenge and you want to found a religion anyway.

Second niche case: If you play Poland and the pantheon you choose includes culture, you actually have time to complete Piety first and Tradition second before Rean era and so don't actually delay Rationalism (if you also build Oracle)

Third niche case: If you have very suitable terrain around your capital for Sun God; you may be able to get more food in your capital that way than with tradition. (You'd still suffer from not having the happiness bonus in the capital from Tradition though)

Note that the last thing Piety needs is any more faith bonuses to the opener as it would make it more likely to already enhance your religion before finishing the tree. A cultural bonus to the opener would be much more useful.

Honor either needs a boost or changed to require Classical era to open to save the AI.

Liberty does not need any boosts; those that self found a lot of cities love it just as much as those that only self found a few cities love Tradition.

 

[reddishrecue]

Yeah that did happen to me when I had a piety social policy completed once, there was more unhappiness and there was a need for happiness. Monarchy in tradition is cheaper and it does provides more happiness.

 

[ixias]

I think the biggest... thing with Piety is that it's meant to be use in conjunction with a Religion. Now the reason I didn't say "problem" or "strength" above is because it's kind of a double edged sword. The benefits of the universally recognized "better" trees, Tradition and Liberty, don't require you do do anything but select them. Piety helps you get a religion, which can mitigate the lost benefits of Tradition and Liberty. There are plenty of Production, Food, Gold, and even Science religious beliefs to chose from and Piety helps get you them faster.

The problem with going Piety and using Religion to fill in the gaps left by Tradition and Liberty is that you need a Religion. To get a food benefit from Tradition or production boost from Liberty, all you have to do is stay alive and get enough culture to adopt them. To get food bonuses from Piety, you need to build a shrine, wait till you get to adopt a pantheon, hope the one you want is still available, wait to found a Religion, then hope those beliefs are still available. Once you finally get a Religion, you need to spread it to your cities (which may not even get the bonus until they hit a certain Population), and then try to maintain it. Meanwhile, you're still going through Piety and missing out on free buildings, enhanced production, stronger military units, etc.

As many people have said, Piety is a great second tree. It allows you to use your religion to enhance your other bonuses as opposed to using religion for them. I honestly think two policy tweaks to Piety would make it a much stronger tree.

Ideally, I would get rid of Religious Tolerance and change it to "Your religion spreads to your cities 10% faster. +10% Culture in your cities following your religion"

It would also be kind of cool to add a % bonus to Faith either during Golden Ages or We Love the King Day, at least in the Holy City. As it stands now, you really aren't generating a ton of extra Faith through Piety (only 2 more per city than if you skipped Piety).


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[reddishrecue]

Organized religion gives you an extra faith per shine and temple. The piety opener itself doubles the temple and shrine build speed which don't make finding a pantheon an issue.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Piety with religion is very likley stronger then either tradition, liberty or honor without or with religion.

I said this before piety can get you a religion with only shrines even on diety.
Not being forced to pick a faith partheon and still get a religion is pretty good, espacialy the culture paretheons which will give you more tourism later on and also allow piety to get policies as quick as the other trees.

Well you miss your free stuff from liberty and tradition however, I can very well live without them and I know I can get them all later on.
I probably get a faster start with the other trees however of them all piety do in my opinion have the best late game.

 

[iconocast]

playing as celts? yes ill open it first and mix in some honor sometimes

 

[isau]

Well since you can also get a free Great Prophet out of Liberty and Liberty allows you to expand faster (and thus claim more tiles for Pantheon faith bonuses), and Liberty will get you through the policy tree faster than Piety... I just don't see any reason Piety is attractive early at all.

The policy I especially don't understand is the opener. If you are racing for a Pantheon you are not going to wait until the first policy pick to build a Shrine. So that means that usually when you do pick the opener, you get nothing from it at first, and your first 50% cost shrine is in the second city... but since you get no special bonuses for actually getting the settler you need to even get a second city, you end losing more turns than either Liberty or Tradition anyway! Liberty would have gotten the Settler out faster and Tradition would be growing the cities faster, and either of those things is better than some dinky 50% discount to build a shrine in a city you popped out late and that can't really grow.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Well since you can also get a free Great Prophet out of Liberty and Liberty allows you to expand faster (and thus claim more tiles for Pantheon faith bonuses), and Liberty will get you through the policy tree faster than Piety... I just don't see any reason Piety is attractive early at all.

The policy I especially don't understand is the opener. If you are racing for a Pantheon you are not going to wait until the first policy pick to build a Shrine. So that means that usually when you do pick the opener, you get nothing from it at first, and your first 50% cost shrine is in the second city... but since you get no special bonuses for actually getting the settler you need to even get a second city, you end losing more turns than either Liberty or Tradition anyway! Liberty would have gotten the Settler out faster and Tradition would be growing the cities faster, and either of those things is better than some dinky 50% discount to build a shrine in a city you popped out late and that can't really grow.

Liberty allow you to expand faster easy, but as you say to claim more tiles for faith partheon.
Piety can found religion without anything else then shrines even on diety, this got two advantages:
First: you can get a religion with "bad" terrain
Second: You don't need to pick a faith partheon allowing you to pick another one like happines or culture.

You can open piety quickly by doing monument first opener and organised religion follows quickly.
It takes some more time for liberty to get its settler bonus then It take piety to get organised religion.
You need to expand quickly if you chose piety and build shrines first however that is not to hard to do.

Piety do also have in my opinion better late game policies then any of the other starting trees.