Opening Piety?

Denkt said:
How?

You can get a culture partheon and still get a religion.
Click to expand...

So you can screw over your faith generation while going the faith tree, just to get a far inferior Culture generation than someone going Tradition.

That sounds not at all like a bad idea...
 
Pietato said:
So you can screw over your faith generation while going the faith tree, just to get a far inferior Culture generation than someone going Tradition.

That sounds not at all like a bad idea...
Click to expand...

How do that give far inferior culture generation then somebody going tradition?

Yes I know about the opener, its 3 culture per turn = work 3 pastures or build 3 shrines for example.

Legalism will help tradition alot but eventually they will be built for piety civs.

Piety do however get +1 later on +2 faith per city with shrines and temple which it can build eaiser and temple also work like a market.

If you can get your religion and maybe some religious buildings up, faith partheon is not as intresting anymore.
Also culture on ground can add to your tourism later on.
 
If I'm opening Piety I would never select a culture pantheon at the expense of a faith one unless I had a heavy jungle start and took Sacred Path. Simply put, shrines are just too expensive to build and maintain unless I am intending to get a Religion. In that case I usually want as much faith as possible so I can get the best beliefs and get missionaries and Pagodas out faster.
Delaying a religion to get +1 culture per shrine is a waste of a pantheon. Really the +1 culture per shrine should be the opening policy of Piety.
Even with 'organised religion' shrines still don't give you a lot for your investment and Piety should provide a bit of culture to keep it up with the other policy trees.

To the OP, I think unless the Devs launch another balance patch I think we can assume that by and large Piety is intended as a supplementary tree. Sure it might work as an opener in certain occasions but it IS always inferior to Tradition or Liberty.
So your best bet is to use it as a hybrid tree with either Liberty or Tradition...
 
Pietato said:
So you can screw over your faith generation while going the faith tree, just to get a far inferior Culture generation than someone going Tradition.

That sounds not at all like a bad idea...
Click to expand...
it dosnt work like that in reality, ur still getting +1 ( or is it +2 ) bonus to faith production from shrines by investing a second sp in the tree. i will quite regularly go for + culture or growth from my pantheon if im playing celts
 
Redaxe said:
If I'm opening Piety I would never select a culture pantheon at the expense of a faith one unless I had a heavy jungle start and took Sacred Path. Simply put, shrines are just too expensive to build and maintain unless I am intending to get a Religion. In that case I usually want as much faith as possible so I can get the best beliefs and get missionaries and Pagodas out faster.
Delaying a religion to get +1 culture per shrine is a waste of a pantheon. Really the +1 culture per shrine should be the opening policy of Piety.
Even with 'organised religion' shrines still don't give you a lot for your investment and Piety should provide a bit of culture to keep it up with the other policy trees.

To the OP, I think unless the Devs launch another balance patch I think we can assume that by and large Piety is intended as a supplementary tree. Sure it might work as an opener in certain occasions but it IS always inferior to Tradition or Liberty.
So your best bet is to use it as a hybrid tree with either Liberty or Tradition...
Click to expand...

I don't se how a build that basicly cost 20 hamers and one gold per turn and give 2 faith is to expansive.
How many times do I have to say this:
Piety can give you a religion on diety with faith only coming from shrines allowing you to pick a non faith partheon or even get a religion then any other policy tree would not give you one.
 
On Emperor and below you can go Piety even Honor and do just fine, but on more tight difficulties you will suffer a lot if you do so.

Because how the game is done, and how science reigns over everything, you need to grow to play the science catch-up game designed for higher difficulties. To support that growth you need happiness and lastly, gold is under a bad design right now and you can enter into the red numbers early on, even without an army.

Some bonuses are just brutal and hard to not using them early, specially free items (monuments, settler) and happiness/gold aids, most needed on early stages. The most glaring issue if the lack of culture while you are finishing the tree, once you get into the third policy it can take ages to get into the next policy.

Most of the Piety branch is geared around religion boosting, and cannot compete with the setup and growth/happiness/production boosts you get on Liberty/Tradition. With the latter you can still get a religion and you get both the passives and the religion boosts.

Midgame yes, great passives once you arrive, but of little aid with an underdeveloped empire. What is better, 25% more gold or 25% more population? That's about it.
 
I must say, I am somewhat disappointed with how religion was implemented after hundreds of hours of play.

I don't understand why it has to be a race. Why on earth can only a certain amount of religions be founded? Why can't you choose certain beliefs just because someone else got there first? Heck, even the reformation belief which is an SP suffers from this mechanic!

Because of this, I think piety is a wasted opportunity especially on higher levels.
 
If I'm goinig full Piety it's for ICS sacred rites.
But, cause I can miss it or want to play Piety (Maya, Celts, Ethiopia, Byzantium, Poland) I need to choose pantheon and religion with culture and happiness (specially if I planed 4 tall cities).
My start base, and sometimes natural wonders say if I'm going piety.
Culture is not really need, it's just because I hope to finish piety between T90 to 110. After with +3 culture from landmark, it's +9 per turn with two academies and religious site. And it's also +9 gpt.

Writing this post, I think I'll try Korea full piety in a further game.
 
Started a deity game last night. Standard everything, Pocatello. Decided to open piety and rush culture from ruins. FForward to turn 120 and things are in shambles. I have a decent religion going (probably meaningless on deity), but everything else is suffering. I had a good start location and all that. No aggressive neighbors. NC finished around turn 118... which is crap.

I ended only taking the piety opener, and was working my way to add a reformation belief, but had to abandon that two policies before because culture was in the toilet and population was crappy all around.

So, yeah, piety imo is awful on immortal or beyond. Pity. Religion is fun.
 
I agree.
I tried Korean 3 Town, Full Piety. NC around T110, Education T135. Science Victory T330, as usual an Emperor. But I need to get Inquisitors to defend my religion. So, on Immortal and Deity, I think it's not viable. Below it's as all games, peaceful victory around T300. It's fun a SVwithout Tradition.
Jesuit Education is amazing cause you can spend money in research agreement, faith rush buy science building for you. Oracle is a must have.
Maybe with 4 cities and a better map (random give me pangea with no mountain near), it could be improve but culture and happiness are issues. Or maybe wide, going into liberty before rationalism. Or Tradition opener, free culture building for amphis or operas.
Oracle and Ermitage are must have. I wonder how I can win without it. Oracle in Deity is a gamble. On Immortal, it's easier.

I'll try it again, maybe with Babylon, Poloand, it's more viable.

One thing, I catched reformation belief before founding a religion : no choice. I was able to choose it 1 turn after I found my religion. So, it's not a bug, it's just logic. I imagine get reformation and can't found a religion, cause no one left, is a real pity (civ V bad joke).
 
I had a theory that I could do piety with the Songhai because of the maintenance free culture temples. I opened honor to make the UA work for me and then went full piety. I went with sun god or goddess of the hunt (multiple tries) to get growth and got my culture from the MPMs and honor. I was doing this on immortal and never had a problem founding even without a faith pantheon. It never did pan out though. No happiness until you found is rough and hurts growth and expansion. You get a good religion but fall behind in just about everything else.

The Piety tree depends on religion for too much to make it a good opener. It has a gpt bonus like honor and tradition, it has a production bonus like the other trees even if it's pretty specific but it ends there. No growth/expansion (shared with honor), no happiness, no culture (two things all three other trees have) kills it for me. You can get that stuff from religion but so can the other trees and religion itself comes too late in comparison to those bonuses in the other trees.

Maybe adding one culture to shrines in the opener and one happiness to temples in theocracy or organized religion might make it more attractive for a pure opening tree.
 
A real problem with the game as-is in regards to piety opener is that getting a pantheon and religion is way too dependent on your starting location instead of making shines and temples. For instance, open piety all you want, but if I start in a desert or next to a religious CS or near a faith wonder, i will generate way more faith than you - and very likely beat you to religion. Often, i see people dominate with religion/faith without ever building a single shrine or temple - that is a real problem IMO.

I think an easy fix would be to remove faith from terrain or move faith on terrain to a piety tenant - then piety would actually be useful for generating faith - right now terrain is way more useful than shrines/temples
 
The biggest problem for me with Piety is that you can't win a religious victory. If they add in Religion as a victory type, then Piety becomes way cooler. You can sit back with a smaller population, less culture and be behind in tech, but just pump out GPs and Missionaries and convert the world. I'm not sure what a religious victory would look like, but if we're going to call it Gods and Kings, then build it in. Maybe like a Holy Roman Emperor or something.
 
I'm going to stand by and clarify my earlier thoughts on Piety. In the early game, Social Policies are about getting as much free stuff as possible to kick-start your empire. Tradition excels at this; a free Monument in your next three cities, plus what's typically an amphitheatre in your capital. It also offers a lot of gold, happiness, food, and later aqueducts.

Liberty is also good, although comes under criticism for being a bit of a slower starter than Tradition. Still, it offers an extra hammer in every city, a free worker, a free settler, and more production towards settlers. It also offers extra culture per city, partially offsetting the lack of free monuments.

Piety is even worse off. Initially it only offers half-price on your shrines and temples, saving 20 hammers per shrine. Then, it offers an extra faith per shrine, but at that time it's likely you only have one or two shrines and no temples. You're likely looking for religion to get you a deeper benefit, except that you can't spend that faith back as you're looking for your founding prophet and enhancing prophet. This means it'll be a long time before you can spare that extra faith to get a return on the investment.

The point at which those Piety Social Policies outstrip Tradition or Liberty's value is much later in the game, where you have several shrines and temples to gain extra Faith from, when you can safely start investing Faith, and when you have other new cities to found to get a shrine or temple in. Religious Tolerance is nowhere near as bad as people say it is; it's only that its benefits are only seen quite late, when there's another religion next door in a new land whose pantheon is more useful for that terrain and luxury. It offers NOTHING early game but can be quite handy later.
 
GoStu said:
It offers NOTHING early game but can be quite handy later.
Click to expand...

I know what you mean. I'm starting to think it wasn't meant to be a full opener but they allowed it to be opened in the ancient era in response to our criticisms that its benefits came too late when it unlocked in the medieval, most importantly the opener and organized religion.

Taking the opener and organized religion makes founding much less of a crapshoot. Then you go on to one of the other trees before finishing to piety. I haven't tried combining piety and liberty yet but theocracy could help solve the gpt problem I have with liberty. The economy usually seems to drag for me when I go liberty. It might be a good strat for Egypt, Indonesia, the Maya, Byzantium or Songhai (I'm not sure I like the Songhai's UA without the honor opener though)

I think one of the worst parts about founding a religion is that the religious buildings are pretty competitive and if you want one you have to take it at founding because it's sure to be gone by the time you enhance. If you want to enhance at a reasonably early time you can't buy those buildings and that locks you out of benefiting from your first belief until a lot later. That really kills the idea that you can use religion to make up for piety's shortcomings.
 
With piety I've had many cities with my religion early. The issue is that you don't get other good things except for religion. Most cities converted to world religion works but other things, who knows?
 
reddishrecue said:
With piety I've had many cities with my religion early. The issue is that you don't get other good things except for religion. Most cities converted to world religion works but other things, who knows?
Click to expand...

And this is exactly the weakness. It might even be an alternate strategy, if not for the fact that religions compete with one another. I hate working so hard to finally start spreading my fully developed religion only to have the inevitable 1-3 zealot civs missionary/city-spam their religion. The worst is when I try to have my religion ONLY in my cities but the AI blatantly converts your cities with nothing you can do but ask them to stop.

WHY THE HECK CAN'T YOU ASK THEM TO STOP BEFORE THEY DO IT!!!??

When this happens I must use the faith I was saving for other things (buildings, GE) just to spread my religion again.
 
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