Optimization Revealed

[Perfection]

working ain't bad.

 

[Drtad]

This system has no chance because of the heavy indoctrination involved and the 'terminations.' That is just horrible. In my proposed system where I am the Emperor of all Humanity, there will be no indoctrination or stuff like that, and people will love me anyway. That's just the way it goes.

There is no point to this discussion. You believe morality is important. I don't. We're not going to change each other's minds, so move on.

Chicks dig men with morals. I find that fact to make morality important.

You would agree that say not punching old ladies in the face is important?

It depends on how evil the old lady is.

 

[Perfection]

How do you determine evilness of old ladies without morality?

 

[greenpeace]

working ain't bad.

Than why do so many people intoxicate themselves to shield themselves from its pain?

 

[Sharwood]

I disagree, I think I can show morality is important!

You would agree that say not punching old ladies in the face is important?

I would say that your revulsion toward the idea of punching old ladies comes from your morality!

This discussion can't go anywhere. I would gladly punch an old lady in the face if doing so proved to my benefit. I'm Machiavellian that way. Not Machiavellian enough to deny it, apparently, but you get the point.

 

[Sharwood]

Please explain in detail how termination will not work, if the person is a threat to the system and is eliminated, threat eliminated, there is no loss to the system since that person would not be providing for the system anyways.

People don't like dying. Organised resistance will emerge, and gain support. I can't explain in much detail how a hypothetical system won't work, just as you can't explain precisely how it will. But I sincerely doubt such a system could even get off the ground without casualties far in excess of what is actually sustainable under the system. What's the point of perfect government if there's no one left to govern? That's what you'd be facing if you managed to pull this off. If not, then my idea of resistance would be created, unless you have Leto Atreides II running your empire.

Assimilation is the hardest part of developing this theory. My only course of action for the most Optimal course is a series of nuclear detonations in key locations, and a unification of the group under a certain ideology that is not Optimization, but is unorganized enough to be gathered up and thrust into Optimal Wave 1.

Biological weapons would be far more effective. They produce less environmental problems, and weed out the wheat from the chaff immediately. But the odds of this happening the way you espouse are beyond astronomical. If I survived such a holocaust, I would immediately seize power, or failing that, slowly work my way to power. And my system is far different to yours.

Optimization will be very slow from the get go, only because of the mass terminations required to start it. However if for whatever reason it is widely accepted, then it won't be an issue to start Optimal Wave 1 and continue forward. I am thinking that if some sort of narcotic can be created that is easily and cheaply produced to produce a common effect among all people this could be used to buy time until genetic waypoints can be installed.

People will doubtless develop resistance to this narcotic over time, in the way that drug addicts need more and more to achieve the same results. Optimisation would be too slow to get off the ground in almost every case, and where it moved quickly, it would likely overreach itself. Such a system would have to be established worldwide simultaneously or it would easily be overcome by other systems, in much the same way the Soviets succumbed to capitalism.

 

[aelf]

I haven't read the last book, I think you just gave it away for me.

Oops. How do you know about Gaia, then?

 

[Shaihulud]

I didn't read all the series of foundation, only prelude abd a couple. This optimisation government is not a possibility, alot of people has mentioned that it is impossible to assign value to compassion, wisdom, morality etc Not to mention artistic or scientific endeavours. It will exclude alot of what human beings do and restrict us to only certain functions leading to stagnancy. This deals with the flaws of the system or any heavily regulated social system.

Another point is that humans are corrupted people, it is impossible to have an infinite number of watchers or it becomes overloaded with bureaucracy. I know that others have basically said the same things, but I just want to add my opinions to theirs. Maybe if we have a dispassionate computer ruler, we can have such a perfect society, but why would such a ruler accomodate flawed beings like us is another question.

 

[zxcvbnm]

The Theory Of Optimization

Optimization is the culmination of several forms of government, some revered, some hated for their cruelty. The necessity of Optimization derives from overpopulation, limited resources, and high crime and corruption rates. optimization isn't made necessary by them. The goal of an Optimized form of government seeks to eliminate waste, corruption, and maximize performance of the workforce, landspace, and limited resources available. by ruining personal freedom and rights For an Optimized society to thrive, all must accept the system, and perform to full capacity towards the goal of the governing body. in a democracy all need not accept it, and by forcing people to accept something like optimization isn't a great idea At the same time, an Optimized society thrives when it is providing for every need of its denizens. and getting terminated is not a need of the people

Philosophy and Doctrine

Often, Optimization is conceived as a cruel mother who hurls its undesireables into the void and pampers it's desireables. This is only partly true. only partly? Though Optimization tries to control human capabilities to its ultimate efficiency, some things need to be overlooked. As long as the denizen is operating at an efficient level and withdrawing less resources than is required to run it, it is seen as a desireable. a civilised society doesn't categorise people to undesirables and desirables This is an important factor considering the initial wave of Optimization, since there are several. Every "Wave" or generation of Optimized civilization, becomes more and more efficient, thus it cannot be expected that this system of government be 100% Optimal within the first generation. There are steps to be taken to ensure that this system of government succeeds, though 100% Optimization is encouraged and expected, in reality anywhere from 98-100% is the reality, at least after several generations. it may be optimised, but not optimal at all
Optimization consists of a mathematical formula, simply put, what is taken from everyone, and what is contributed to everyone. As long as you are inputing more into society rather than receiving from society, you are clear to remain in the Optimized society. The government provides everything for you, to include food, housing, clothing, entertainment, etc. and anything not fitting in is removed, making a plain monoculture, dying from its own stagnation It all comes from the masses. Your job, as far as optimization is concerned, is determined after a series of general schooling and testing. Everyone from birth, except those with genetic defects, are given roughly 1.5 decades of schooling, and .5 decades of training into a specific job in which you are tested and Optimized towards. The job into which you are assigned is tailored firstly to your specific strengths, and secondly to your specific tastes. Not everyone will love their position in an optimized society. this alone, being forced to something unwanted, is enough of a reason to oppose such an idea This is countered by the fact that you can apply for a different position, though testing and training costs are factored into the equation of you switching positions. Once you are locked into a position into society, it is very hard to leave. even if you would like something else. Result: lower happiness = bad form of government You perform that duty for as long as capable by the biology of your genetics and then terminated once your output exceeds your input, yeah, use them as long as they benefit you and then throw them away without feelings of gratitude or anything else or you are outranked by a desireable that performs the job better and with less resources. This is performed with the act of "Termination", or simply put, you are destroyed to make way for a more optimal desireable. plain NAZI Don't forget that this also includes machinery and artificial intelligence, though this will be attempted to be optimized as well, seeing as how any machine, once perfected, can perform the job of a human at a faster and better quality rate, at least a thousand times over. Optimized humans have priority over AI and optimized machinery, though in limited respects depending on what the job is and what resources are required to run or obtain the desired result of the position.

Termination and Continued Optimization



This is where Optimization, in most cases, gets the boot. and it's good that it gets the boot Due to the terminations required for an Optimized government, people forego the benefits of society as a whole and embrace what is known to them. guess why? because the society doesn't care about the people, just itself. The people aren't for the society, but the society is for the people. Is it so hard to understand? When Optimization is a full fledged government, children will be taught that not all will make it, that termination is a part of life, and that the continuation of the species as a whole is by far the best result compared to the suffering of a generation based on a few. ie brainwashed to be ready to give up anything for the faceless society Death, though sad and the basis of greif in an Optimized society, is a requirement for continued Utopia. no it isn't Factors leading to the termination of an individual is as follows:
- Refusal to accept the Optimized society ie sane people
- Breaking one of several covenents based on the rules of an Optimized form of government
- Letting your withdrawal from government funds exceed your input into society as a whole
- Being of lesser genetic value, simply put, having some sort of genetic or mental defect in which your position in an optimized society is severely compromised
so they aren't allowed to live, of no fault of their own

Optimization still tries to maintain as many humans of Optimal performance as allowed, not to be replaced by machinery and artificial intelligence, though it's continued mathematical problem solving may find that after awhile, certain positions must be sacrificed to said intelligence or machinery to makeway for a much more efficient and Optimized production line. If this is the case an Optimal government will attempt to find a different field of expansion in which these humans who's discovery essentially obsoleted themselves, continues to find other routes of improvement. Again not everyone will be obsoleted from the subjection of the laws of termination, so it is possible that even though humans obtain a certain level of technology that obsoletes themselves, it may in the end, provide themselves a different route in an Optimized system of government. Not to say however, that it is possible that using the mathematical equation, they have indeed obsoleted themselves, and will not be replaced by humans, and indeed subjected themselves to the laws of termination. Termination exists only to further the expansion of the human race, and thusly, should only be taken with a bitter-sweet taste in ones mouth, the mathematical equation determines who and when should be terminated. and all humane is removed. it can't be for the good of humanity if the weak are just mercilessly murdered

Beginning Optimization, and Future Optimization




In the beginning Optimization will pretty much have a place for all humans willing to accept the system. Millions, even billions perhaps, the sane people of the world will refuse to accept the system however, and thus subjugate themselves to the first law of termination. Thus these individuals will be terminated appropriately for violation of law 1 of termination, thus eliminating the threat of resistance to Optimization. Anything that threatens the Optimized form of government must be eliminated. Anyone refusing to accept the system is a potential threat to the utopian form of government, and must be eliminated to ensure survival. In the beginning, theories of corruption and personal gain still exist so terminations are high, and corruption and waste are at its peak. so why should we support it as we can't benefit from it, only the faceless society? This is elminated with further training and continued Optimization into further generations, eliminating false stereotypes and ideologies that threaten the governing body. After several generations exactly. ignore those people, just for some stupid fascist dreams and terminations of undesireables, along with elimination of violators of the rules of termination, Optimization takes hold with a single ideology and thought group that perpetuates itself. This in turn leads to the future of Optimization. 1984
This is where the future of Optimization leads us. Everyone has a place in a society that perpetuates itself, the only time terminations are utilized is for termination violators, and people who through their efforts to continue Optimization have obsoleted themselves, though every effort has been made to continue to find a place for these obsolete. Eventually a massive percentage has been replaced by machinery and artificial intelligence, at least for the repetitious tasks, and thus only Optimized citizens of a higher caliber exist to maintain said intelligence and machinery. At this point human expansion should have reached other planets, thus exploiting potential landspace and resources in order to maintain the growth of the human race. This allows for a much higher expansion of population numbers and therefore, inserting a newer variable into the equation that allows us to expand even further. Eventually Optimization grows into an exponentially expanding form of government. what is the point? life just for the increase of itself is pointless

Conclusion



Optimization is undeniably and pigs do fly the perfect form of government, utilizing mathematical equations, which don't fit in the real world common sense, where? I don't see any here and a uniformity of ideals and goals against all sensible diversity, it can only be concluded as the epitome of governmenting bodies, and thus the only way yeah, sure for humanity to acheive what it should. depends on what "what it should" is considered to be. max happiness to everyone is far better than some nazi ideal, making optimization far worse than most of the alternatives Destroying weaknesses and enhancing perfection is by far, the human condition to be. O RLY?

- Questions? what on Earth makes people think this would be a good idea?
- Comments? in red
- Suggestions? give the whole idea up. it's the real thing to do for the good of humanity

comments in red

(a completely stupid, inhumane, cruel, merciless, unbeneficial, unrewardin idea BTW)

 

[Perfection]

This discussion can't go anywhere. I would gladly punch an old lady in the face if doing so proved to my benefit. I'm Machiavellian that way. Not Machiavellian enough to deny it, apparently, but you get the point.

That's not Machiavellian, that's wanton disregard for other people. Machiavellian would be a morally better end justifying immoral means (for example, engaging in political corruption to support a charitable cause), not anything you like (punching old ladies for profit). I have a sneaking feeling that you wouldn't actually do it, but if you did then you probably have a defective mind.

 

[JerichoHill]

Optimization? HA! Our best models can't account for preference or taste, and by the power of the Buchanan-Tulloch critique on voting preference and optimality for the individuals (which basically won a Nobel Prize for showing it was impossible)

I say,

FAIL!

PS: Under your optimized society Stephen Hawking would never have gotten a chance at life. Your society further fails.

PSS: Butterfly effects, chaos theory, and game theory further debunk your silly claim.

 

[Perfection]

nuh-uh, Stephen Hawking was already a crazy-smart fisiks d00d before he got Al's!


THEREFORE YOUR ARGUMENT IS INCORRECT AND YOU FAIL MR. HILL! FAIL MISERABLY, YOU SUB-OPTIMAL PIECE OF INEFFICIENCY RIPE FOR TERMINATION!

 

[JerichoHill]

Perfection, you optimize me

 

[Chazumi]

People don't like dying. Organised resistance will emerge, and gain support. I can't explain in much detail how a hypothetical system won't work, just as you can't explain precisely how it will. But I sincerely doubt such a system could even get off the ground without casualties far in excess of what is actually sustainable under the system. What's the point of perfect government if there's no one left to govern? That's what you'd be facing if you managed to pull this off. If not, then my idea of resistance would be created, unless you have Leto Atreides II running your empire.

Once billions are dead under the flag of Optimization people will flock to it to avoid being terminated. Of course they don't like being terminated, that's why they strive so hard to avoid it. And whoever is running house Harkonnen at the time would be a much better candidate than Leto...

Biological weapons would be far more effective. They produce less environmental problems, and weed out the wheat from the chaff immediately. But the odds of this happening the way you espouse are beyond astronomical. If I survived such a holocaust, I would immediately seize power, or failing that, slowly work my way to power. And my system is far different to yours.

I think nukes would be a much more devastating weapon (emotionally), and encourage more people to join the winning side of Assimilation.

People will doubtless develop resistance to this narcotic over time, in the way that drug addicts need more and more to achieve the same results. Optimisation would be too slow to get off the ground in almost every case, and where it moved quickly, it would likely overreach itself. Such a system would have to be established worldwide simultaneously or it would easily be overcome by other systems, in much the same way the Soviets succumbed to capitalism.

Or become dependent on it for survival, perhaps physical withdrawals or suicidal mental problems from withdrawal. Regardless, I think even many small cells of Optimization under a head Optimized group at least at first, would avoid pitfalls of non-conformity, and the guerilla tactics employed by all Optimized cells would quickly terminate non-Optimals.

comments in red

(a completely stupid, inhumane, cruel, merciless, unbeneficial, unrewardin idea BTW)

Most of those comments are opinionated so I really can't counter, although I can say that Optimization is by far the best choice. Think about it logically. IF we survive the next 10,000 years, think of the trillions dead from random acts of violence, people doing what they please for their own benefit, lunatics with weapons of mass destruction, versus, killing a few billion now, and living the next 50,000 years, where rape, murder, and corruption that leads to the deaths of trillions over time, is virtually non-existant. Not to mention nobody suffers from anything because those that did (diseased) are eliminated, genetic defects are a thing of the past, and society is a perfect sphere of neverending progress.

PS: Under your optimized society Stephen Hawking would never have gotten a chance at life. Your society further fails.

PSS: Butterfly effects, chaos theory, and game theory further debunk your silly claim

Somebody else would have made his discoveries, in an Optimized system of government the body is focused 100% on as many projects that can be maintained at Optimal level, so even though it may have come at a later time in an Optimized society, it would have come at a fraction of the time.

About the theories, please explain why these debunk Optimization.

nuh-uh, Stephen Hawking was already a crazy-smart fisiks d00d before he got Al's!


THEREFORE YOUR ARGUMENT IS INCORRECT AND YOU FAIL MR. HILL! FAIL MISERABLY, YOU SUB-OPTIMAL PIECE OF INEFFICIENCY RIPE FOR TERMINATION!

Perfection has now secured himself the position of Supreme Chancellor of the Optimized Language Institute, and future author of "Insulting People in an Optimized Way." Congratulations.

IT'S NOT TOO LATE FOR THE REST OF YOU!!

 

[Sharwood]

Oops. How do you know about Gaia, then?

Gaia's revealed in the second-last book.

 

[Sharwood]

That's not Machiavellian, that's wanton disregard for other people. Machiavellian would be a morally better end justifying immoral means (for example, engaging in political corruption to support a charitable cause), not anything you like (punching old ladies for profit). I have a sneaking feeling that you wouldn't actually do it, but if you did then you probably have a defective mind.

Machiavelli promoted the idea of amorality - not immorality - to achieve one's goals. If punching an old lady helps you achieve your goals, that can be seen as Machiavellian. Of course, there are several ways to read Machiavelli, but uniting Italy against the 'barbarians' - his primary goal - is neither moral nor immoral, so I choose to read it in the aforementioned manner.

 

[Sharwood]

Once billions are dead under the flag of Optimization people will flock to it to avoid being terminated. Of course they don't like being terminated, that's why they strive so hard to avoid it. And whoever is running house Harkonnen at the time would be a much better candidate than Leto...

No. History has shown that brutality may be very effective in bringing people to heel, but wanton murder incites resistance. The Soviet Union managed to avoid armed resistance primarily because Stalin purged its officer corps, and the German invasion provided another enemy before new factions could develop. Later, his policies were dropped. They could never have worked long-term, as Nazi policies could not have. Besides, Stalin's course of action deprived him of many talented people, something I'm sure you'd be against.

And Leto could see the future. A major advantage over the Harkonnens.

I think nukes would be a much more devastating weapon (emotionally), and encourage more people to join the winning side of Assimilation.

Nukes would also encourage massive retaliation. Not to mention the aforementioned collateral damage. Biological weapons are far superior, cheaper and potentially much more effective.

Or become dependent on it for survival, perhaps physical withdrawals or suicidal mental problems from withdrawal. Regardless, I think even many small cells of Optimization under a head Optimized group at least at first, would avoid pitfalls of non-conformity, and the guerilla tactics employed by all Optimized cells would quickly terminate non-Optimals.

And becoming dependent on it for survival would be good because? It would result in more deaths than your termination policy. Optimal guerrila groups would be annihilated by their powerful enemies. Unless you think the Nazis could have gained power without popular support.

Somebody else would have made his discoveries, in an Optimized system of government the body is focused 100% on as many projects that can be maintained at Optimal level, so even though it may have come at a later time in an Optimized society, it would have come at a fraction of the time.

Not for quite some time. Look at the stagnation of science under the Soviet Union. Their space program collapsed after the US developed plastics and solid fuels, things the Russians didn't even have the industries for. Something similar would happen under your system.

 

[aelf]

Gaia's revealed in the second-last book.

Sorry. Can't really remember. Nevertheless, read it on your own and interpret it yourself. The last book is kind of wacky.

 

[Sharwood]

Sorry. Can't really remember. Nevertheless, read it on your own and interpret it yourself. The last book is kind of wacky.

So was the second-last. I think Isaac went nuts or something.

 

[philippe]

Chazumi, congratulations with your new daughter. but, do you wish that she grows up in a world like that?

I don't want to get too personal, but I saw what complications the birth had. Do you think she would be deemed "fit" in an optimization society?

Just think about it.