Oracle Slingshot: Tips?

I sometimes wonder if they forced the great artists to pop with the parthenon and NE just to make sure it wasn't too over-powering.

Each person you pop, increases the requirements for the next by 100 GPPs. So getting even a couple great artists at places can really be costly.

Though that is probably just fine for the guy who goes for the Great Artist rush strategy for deity. He is probably off cursing every time he gets a Great Engineer instead. :)
 
Well as I said parthenon isn't too bad (not nearly as good as pacifism though) because you can always build it in a production city which will never get a GP. National epic is a different kettle of fish though, that's why I don't tend to build it until the GPs start taking longer and longer (or I think the AI might beat me to liberalism, then it's fingers and toes crossed and build it anyway).

I'm with the people who say you seem to always get the wrong type of GP when you really want a specific type. My monarch win I got 2 engineers on the way to liberalism from pyramids & great lib city but still managed to bag liberalism first (one engineer was used for Heroic Epic in the military production centre and another for Taj Mahal after taking Nationalism from liberalism - golden age meant I got cavalry even sooner). It was looking like a close thing though. (I got a great artist later which bombed Berlin to grab land for domination).

Anyway I thought we were discussing the Oracle? Over-rated unless you can get a good slingshot or gambit I say. The metal casting forge engineer one works a dream with an industrious leader (half price forges) for pyramids, however.
 
2 + 1.5 x 8 = 14 GPP/turn combo veruses 8 GPP/turn for just GLibrary

The Parthenon doesn't multiply itself? Assuming you DO, in fact, build it in the same city as your GL:

2 (Parthenon) + 8 (Great Library) x 1.5 = 15?

Not a challenge, but a question on the mechanics of the Parthenon.
 
Parthenon does multiply itself. I didn't get that calculation either.

Still a no-no in the GL city I think. Even worse if you build NE there, which is a better plan, perhaps.
 
I think the OP was asking more basic questions: when, and how to do it, in particular.

On Prince difficulty and lower, you can wait to get it built after you have 2 or 3 total cities. That has the extra bonus of allowing you to research more before you build the Oracle. If you are not industrious or don't have marble hooked up, plan on chopping wood or using the slavery civic to get it done.

On higher difficulties, you will need to start Oracle earlier if you don't have marble and/or aren't Industrious, and you will therefore have to settle for a "lesser" tech from the slingshot. You will also find it hard on Monarch and higher difficulty to get both Stonehenge and the Oracle without sacrificing your empire's expansion.

As to what to pick with the Oracle ... read below. If you don't use the oracle to grab a religion and haven't already founded a religion, you should strongly consider using the Oracle's great prophet to lightbulb Theocracy and found Christianity.

Top tier Oracle techs

Code of Laws 350 beakers

Requires priesthood and writing. A good all-purpose tech that will most likely give you Confucianism and aid in your economy (and espionage points too, with BtS). The Oracle's Great Person Points will then generate a great prophet with which you can create the Kong Miao holy shrine.

Metal Casting 450 beakers

Requires pottery and iron working. Gives you access to forges and the Colossus, which is great if you are Industrious (cheap forges), have a lot of coastal cities, or just want an edge in warmongering. You can then use the great prophet to either lightbulb Theology (after picking up monotheism), crank up your forge-boosted production by settling him, or to found a holy shrine if you founded one of the early religions.

Theology 500 beakers

Requires writing and monotheism. You will almost certainly found Christianity (as it's an expensive tech for the AI to reach with traditional research) and can use the great prophet for the holy shrine. Theology also gives you a solid warmongering option, giving even non-Aggressive civs 5 xp units with a barracks.

Civil Service 800 beakers

Requires Code of Laws or Feudalism. This is hard to pull off due to the tech prerequsites. Civil Service allows you to spread irrigation to non-fresh water tiles and gives you access to Macemen once you also have Machinery, which is a long way off at this point (Machinery requires Metal Casting and is quite expensive in the early game). Personally, I think the Civil Service slingshot is overrated and hard to pull off consistently, but it is a very expensive tech you can get early. Civil Service really doesn't provide a significant short-term benefit, though, unless you are having having food production issues and need more irrigation. Also, in BtS, I have noticed that the AI civs will cancel their trades and diplomatic deals with you if you out-tech them and beat them to Civil Service.

Feudalism 700 beakers

Requires Writing and Monarchy. This opens up serfdom and vassalage, great builder and warmonger civics, respectively, and unlocks longbows. If you are a Protective civ and want to beef up your archers for offense or defense, this is a great way to go. A protective civ running vassalage (with barracks) can make a longbow with City Garrison I and Drill III (or Drill I, Combat I, and Shock) right out of the gate. This makes archery units useful offensively.

Alphabet 300 beakers

Requires Writing (although I've always thought you needed an alphabet to write ... go figure). Lets you tech trade and opens up Literature (however, in BtS, Aesthetics is required for Literature, and may be a better Oracle tech choice if early literature is your goal). Despite its relatively cheap research cost, I include this as a top tier option because it is a key component of many beeline research strategies.

Other Oracle tech options

Monarchy 300 beakers

It may seem like overkill to use the Oracle on this tech (it's fairly cheap, compared to the other techs on this list), but if you finish the Oracle too soon, or are in a higher difficulty game where you are rushing against the AI to build it, it may be worth taking. Hereditary Rule is a great civic for growing your cities by garrisoning units, which incidentally boosts your power rating and helps your relations with other civs. Monarchy also unlocks wineries, which add a ton of commerce if you have a lot of grapes in your borders.

Currency 400 beakers

Requires Mathematics. Gives your cities an extra trade route and allows you to build marketplaces. If money is tight this may be an option, but you'll make more money from building courthouses and reducing city maintenance in the early game. This is probably overkill for the Oracle.

Construction 350 beakers

Requires Masonry and Mathematics. This is a great warmonger tech for those of you needing catapults or who have access to ivory and War Elephants. It's pretty cheap to research this normally, but if you are in a war and need catapults right now, it could be worthwhile.

Calendar 350 beakers

Requires Sailing and Mathematics. Calendar centers the world map and lets you build plantations, which can be great depending on your resources. Getting Calendar early will really crank up your economy and give you trade bait for other civs. Since, in BtS, Calendar no longer obsoletes Monuments and Stonehenge, the disincentive to take it is gone. If your religious and warmonger needs are being met elsewhere, I would consider Calendar for the economic benefits.

Conclusion

Choose your Oracle tech based on your civ, location, peace/war status, and religious status. Pick a free tech that you will actually use soon.
 
You need maths too for civil service in warlords (and presumably BtS too), which makes it tricky but doable at noble and perhaps prince level. I'd consider the beureacracy civic a pretty good short term benefit too, it's one of the best in the game.

If you are industrious for half price forges and playing at epic speed or above it's definitely worth getting metal casting, building a forge in a different city, running an engineer, and using the great engineer which comes quicker than the prophet from the oracle for free pyramids. Normal speed with a non-industrious leader makes this tricky to beat the great prophet with the engineer and requires alot of complicated pre-chopping with workers to get the forge up in time.
 
In my experience, I don't know much about BtS since I only got it a couple of days, in Warlords I can win the Oracle race 90+% of times before 1400BC at monarch level at normal speed (probably 50% of chance if building it before 1000BC). So there's decent amount of time and I don't see need to beeline to priesthood too early. Besides, you want to open up the more expensive tech to maximize the return, so I'll normally get a few important techs first (BW, AH/agriculture/fishing, wheel/pottery, writing, etc), plus the specific tech(s) that open up the targeted tech (e.g. monarch if you want feudalism slingshot). My guideline is, if you don't win the race, at least it won't cost you the game because you mess up your early research priority.

Oracle to me is basically a mean to trade hammers for beakers + some additional benefts (GP and culture). For a 150-hammer investment (lowered if you have marble and/or industrious), I think a 300+ beaker tech is the bottomline I can accept (slobberinbear has done a great job listing the most popular options). The exception is if you want IW (200 beakers) or horse riding (250 beakers) early to get your UU (e.g. praets, keshiks) ASAP. I actually do it often when I play Ghenghis Khan because his research rate is just too pathetic. By the time he has horse riding thru normal teching his Keshiks have lost the edge.
 
Lately I've been experimenting with a Divine Right slingshot via the Oracle. Research to Monotheism/Monarchy; build Stonehenge and/or run priest specialists to get an early GP, which lightbulbs Theology; and presto! Not sure how useful this is :p except it's a tech that's 1½ times more expensive than Civil Service, plus it blocks off the whole Theo/DR lightbulb path so future Prophets & Artists can bulb useful stuff like Nationalism. It's also very doable on Prince level and possibly Monarch.

It's also possible to take Education as the free tech, if you pop Theo and somehow manage to generate a Great Merchant to bulb Paper. I don't think this would be possible at all on higher levels.
 
Lately I've been experimenting with a Divine Right slingshot via the Oracle. Research to Monotheism/Monarchy; build Stonehenge and/or run priest specialists to get an early GP, which lightbulbs Theology; and presto! Not sure how useful this is :p except it's a tech that's 1½ times more expensive than Civil Service, plus it blocks off the whole Theo/DR lightbulb path so future Prophets & Artists can bulb useful stuff like Nationalism. It's also very doable on Prince level and possibly Monarch.

It's also possible to take Education as the free tech, if you pop Theo and somehow manage to generate a Great Merchant to bulb Paper. I don't think this would be possible at all on higher levels.

Great idea there ... you also get access to Versailles and the Spiral Minaret, IIRC, which can boost your economy alone or together.
 
You need maths too for civil service in warlords (and presumably BtS too), which makes it tricky but doable at noble and perhaps prince level. I'd consider the beureacracy civic a pretty good short term benefit too, it's one of the best in the game.
Good point. Bureaucracy is a great peacetime civic, and I missed the mathematics requirement.

However, I stand by my statement that Civil Service can be hard to slingshot (even more so with Mathematics). If you could be the first to research Code of Laws and get Confucianism, and get Mathematics, it could be worth it. However, your starting position and the game situation may make it impossible to avoid taking other important techs like fishing, sailing, masonry, iron working, and animal husbandry ... and by then, it may be too late to finish the Oracle.
 
Lately I've been experimenting with a Divine Right slingshot via the Oracle. Research to Monotheism/Monarchy; build Stonehenge and/or run priest specialists to get an early GP, which lightbulbs Theology; and presto! Not sure how useful this is :p except it's a tech that's 1½ times more expensive than Civil Service, plus it blocks off the whole Theo/DR lightbulb path so future Prophets & Artists can bulb useful stuff like Nationalism. It's also very doable on Prince level and possibly Monarch.

It's also possible to take Education as the free tech, if you pop Theo and somehow manage to generate a Great Merchant to bulb Paper. I don't think this would be possible at all on higher levels.

This is really really hard on Monarch or higher. The best I can do right now is feudalism slingshot at 50% success rate. CS slingshot can only be pulled out if I get a floodplain/gold starts with financial leader. Still it requires some luck. Education slingshot is basically like lottery draw.
 
Metal Casting 450 beakers
Requires pottery and iron working. Gives you access to forges and the Colossus, which is great if you are Industrious (cheap forges), have a lot of coastal cities, or just want an edge in warmongering. You can then use the great prophet to either lightbulb Theology (after picking up monotheism), crank up your forge-boosted production by settling him, or to found a holy shrine if you founded one of the early religions.

Metal Casting only requires Bronze Working and Pottery, not Iron Working. It's actually one of my favourite techs from the Oracle, maybe because I mostly play OCCs and the Engineer specialist a forge allows is very valuable in those games.
 
lol I just realized no one's mentioned the Philosophy Slingshot with the Oracle.

It's relatively difficult but easier then the CS slingshot, Not sure if the tech is more expensive then CS though.

But basically you research Meditation and COLs then Oracle to Philosophy, easy enough huh? It opens up Pacifism, Angkor Wat and Liberalism Beeline. You also save a Scientist not being sued 2 Light bulb the tech.
 
lol I just realized no one's mentioned the Philosophy Slingshot with the Oracle.

It's relatively difficult but easier then the CS slingshot, Not sure if the tech is more expensive then CS though.

But basically you research Meditation and COLs then Oracle to Philosophy, easy enough huh? It opens up Pacifism, Angkor Wat and Liberalism Beeline. You also save a Scientist not being sued 2 Light bulb the tech.

That's so true. This is the best slingshot when you play isolated, when you don't need big military force and is not afraid of declaring state religion, so pacifism will give you max return. Eliz is the best leader pulling this trick.
 
Haven't read the last few posts here, but had an idea you might think about.
At higher levels (probably monarch and above, maybe prince), you most likely aren't going to pull off a real sling shot (getting a super expensive tech like CS or CoL or MC). At these levels, the value of the Oracle is probably more for either an industrious or philo leader to get the GPP. The free tech just makes it a little more worthwhile to spend the production on it.

When you think about it, you are usually researching 2 or 3 techs you normally wouldn't need just to get the right to build the oracle, and then you still have to invest the hammers in it. While this may be worth it at low levels if you can grab a juicy tech, at the higher levels, you are probably just chasing a phantom boon. The free tech is generally worth much less than the research and hammers to get it.
 
I grab MC often because it has such good trade value -- it's more expensive than anything on the Currency/CoL/Calendar/Construction/Monarchy tier, so I can often get 2 or 3 of those straight up. MC is not hard at all to get the pre-reqs for.

I've also been considering an Aesthetics slingshot -- especially if I've got Marble (a good reason to get sucked into the Oracle to begin with). Assuming I got to Priesthood via Poly, this immediately opens the Parthenon and is the pre-req for Lit, i.e. the Great Library and National Epic. How much is a jump-started GP farm worth? I haven't tried it yet but I plan to ....

peace,
lilnev
 
I play on Emperor and lately I have been using the Oracle grab monarchy and switch to HR right away. This works great with Sumeria because it unlocks the ziggurat as well. Lots of big, low maintenance cites early. Combine this with the extra espionage (I start running it at 10 percent and run a spy in the capital after the Zigs go up) and you have a solid civ.
 
On higher difficulties, oracle sets back my axe rush quite a bit, without the resources. It's a huge tradeoff that early, and usually I have to acknowledge I'm entering builder mode. And BW first, definitely.

I love the divine right idea. Only problem is, if you've got theology, can't you just great prophet divine right? I don't agree with getting philosophy, because lightbulbing is like getting a free tech and puts you 2 ahead to liberalism. Ramses could do pull it off, easily.
 
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