Orbis - the original thread

[Ahwaric]

Thanks for the info, now you can see how outdated my info is

By the way, below is a little teaser for patch a
Top to bottom, left to right: svartalfar crossbowman & pikeman, khazad berserker (may end as a troll slayer, with a bonus against beast units), updated phalanx, crossbowman, maros

 

[Ahwaric]

I have finished the patch a.
It fixes some bugs, also brings quite a few new unit models.
You can get all this here.

 

[Gilg]

It's a b'tch having to choose between FF and orbi. In the perfect world the two would join.

Ahwaric - you ought have a place on the official FF team. Perhaps vice versa for the FF on the orbi team

 

[Wauthan]

I'm actually glad the two modmakers keep their work separated. There's such a thing as too many features, and some of the concepts clash horribly. That said I'm sure both Ahwaric and Vehem are both quick to incorporate good ideas into their work, regardless if it's the same idea or not. That's what happened to Marnoks Mod afterall.

 

[Ahwaric]

In fact, I am currently trying to incorporate Xienwolf's codebase from FF here. I do not like some (the new XP system), but most of it is amazing.
I am not sure what can I do with my low coding skills (having problems extracting the code I want...) but you will probably see some of the FF stuff...
If I decide that I can't do it, I will move to semi-FFmodmodmod option, same codebase but different actuall features. But I learned python (a bit at least) and some graphics editing while working on orbi so I keep trying to do it my way and choose only the things I really really want.
Making Orbi a normal modmodmod is hard to do as I said, too many features overlap and would take lot of rebalancing. It is not so simple as just adding another civilization, even so great and unique as i.e. Scions...

And thanks for the kind words!
I owe a lot to both Xienwolf and Vehem, but do not think it is the same the other way

 

[Willgar]

really enjoying orbi mod - thank you Ahwaric and keep up the good work

/salute

 

[tyranny12]

really enjoying orbi mod - thank you Ahwaric and keep up the good work

/salute

I must say, from when I left after planning my overly ambitious tech rework, a lot of really awesome work has been done in the modmod area.

Orbi looks great, though I have to test out FF's new features since so much has changed. I love seeing the return of the multiple unit lines from BtS.

I'd also love to actually deploy my rebalanced and extended tree, but since I haven't even seen the new changes in FF, or tested the ones in Orbi, that may take a bit. This is the first time I've had my desktop up since May when I disappeared (except one week in August.)

Still, looking forwards to trying this out.

 

[Alzara]

Oooh patch A looks cool. Gonna start a new game now hehe

Al

 

[civ_king]

Arise from the dead...
okay not really
Patch A was good

 

[Ahwaric]

I do not consider Orbi dead. I guess that everyone is playng FF

I plan to post a one more version before ice, but for now:
- no bug reported that I can fix (some old ones are in, but they are more tricky and not so serious)
- I try to implement Xienwolf's changes and that means I am learning how to change dll right now
- got the final exam
- finally recieved new expansion for NWN, so now I am actually playing
- everyone is playing new FF?

 

[Wauthan]

Nope, just Orbi actually. But since you're recommending it I guess I should give FF a try. Always felt that Vehem goes a bit too far with all the changes. FFH is complicated enough to begin with.

Tried a vanilla BtS game the other day, and it felt boring as grey wallpaper. But some of the random events were fun. A lot of them are already in FFH but would it be possible to add even more? I figured that since they are present in the base game they are easier to add then creating new ones.

I've been searching for new sounds for the units, but after trying to piece together the right unit with the right sound I found it to be needlessly complicated. Given me a better perspective on all the work you've gone through to create Orbi.

 

[Ahwaric]

Nope, just Orbi actually. But since you're recommending it I guess I should give FF a try. Always felt that Vehem goes a bit too far with all the changes.

My thoughts exactly. That is why I did not move to FF (Orbi started as my personal playing mod...), or play it much. On the other hand, there is a lot of good stuff in, so I plan to get some. Like some of Xienwolf's base code changes, which I try to port here now.

Tried a vanilla BtS game the other day, and it felt boring as grey wallpaper. But some of the random events were fun. A lot of them are already in FFH but would it be possible to add even more?

Consider it done. I plan to review the events for some time now, so I will check this thread and see what I like to get. ALso, I plan to get rid of some of the events and rewrite other.
Adding existing stuff is always easier, but events are quite easy anyway.

I've been searching for new sounds for the units, but after trying to piece together the right unit with the right sound I found it to be needlessly complicated.

My main problem is that I do not have a good source of sounds (or did not dig deep enough). Anyway, if you want them added I can try - just send me the sounds and suggestions what units should get them (I do not play that much, so I am not aware of some weird combos)

 

[Wauthan]

Remembered that I had a few balance issues after the last game.
- Workshops need to have a food penalty. Right now it's always better to build a workshop then a lumbermill, since you get the same result but also get extra production from cutting.

- Yurts, Goums and Aduars are simply too good. My recommendation would be that they can't be built on hills. Goums give +1 commerce only, +1 food with Horseback riding, +1 production with Stirrups. Horselords give +1 commerce only. Aduars get no bonus from Trade (Trade is nearly always researched by the time the first aduars pop out).

As it is the Hippus are a production powerhouse, and Elves can built yurts in ancient forests. This creates a huge early game advantage.

- It's often better to build farms, yurts or towns then plantations. Even more so since a common event gives bonuses to farms. Perhaps plantations could benefit from a civic or tech?

- Marble is the only resource that is quarried, making quarries almost redundant. Could perhaps be joined with mines and get the same bonuses?

- I've never seen any of the Legendary Beasts or TumTum when playing Orbi. Might just be a fluke but their long absence is suspicious.

- A lot of times the AI doesn't research Agriculture or Calendar. This is often remedied as soon as one civilization researches Trade. But for some reason a few agriculturally challenged civs appear in almost every game.

- Prospectors and Millers ability to spawn new resources doesn't always feel very fun. Takes away a lot of the reason to fight over the best slice of land. Since mines and farms already spawn resources it's not unusual to end up with quite a selection of them.

- Perhaps a late game tech that let's you see pearls? Never understood the Lanun only condition.

 

[Wauthan]

Good source for new sounds is the Civ 3 C&C forum on this site. Since I was somewhat peeved with the manly grunts of the female units I decided to download the Warhammer mod for Civ3, since the mod includes an Amazon Civ. I'll get back to you if I found something that beats the current version. Oddly Civ 4 is suffering from something of a sound drought.

 

[Dzhel]

Not dead, not playing FF (I had to search to know what it was). Just work and finals time for me as well has crushed all hope of free time heh.

I have been getting in a few games though and have spotted Tum Tum a couple times so he's running around for sure. As far as the legendary beast go, I usually see them when exploring a lair and it says a pack leader has spawned.

On the plus side, I discovered that I had the agressive AI option picked. I couldn't understand how a horde of like 60 assassins came sweeping in from nowhere. Their troop productivity must be insane with that option.

Also, is it just my inherently bad luck or are griffon's nests the most dire, cursed places imaginable since I rarely get something good from them

Always glad to have Orbi's to look forward to in-between work and study.

 

[Caradoc]

Griffon Nests have actually been fairly kind to me. They don't seem to crank out Griffons that often and sometimes I get a free Griffon or Griffon Totem. My problem is the Spider Nests that seem to populate the area with vast numbers of hidden Spiders. And not the Babies either.

 

[Wauthan]

I think the spider infestation Caradoc mentioned and the absence of the three legendary beasts + TumTum might be related. I'm not sure but I remember reading that there is a set amount of barbarian units on the map. With all the lairs present in Orbi that number is spread wider and thinner then in FFH.

In essence spiders are the new bears. They are the strongest against the AI since they are hidden, stationary and pack one mean punch. A stack of twelve giant spiders hit really hard, and as soon as the Barbarian counter drops they start making new lairs. Might not work as intended but I actually find this to be pretty awesome. Last game there was a veritable spider horde separating me from the Dovellio

Griffons tend to get themselves killed fairly quickly but I've yet to see the AI attack one of their nests. Going griffon taming lategame to create the perfect griffon knight is a very nice feature. I always bring a beastmaster with my invasion force.

Come to think of it, since 015 I've not seen the barbarians build any farms or plantations. Might further explain the lack of TumTum since it makes most barbarian cities very small.

 

[Ahwaric]

Griffon nests use exactly the same exploration results chances that other lairs, so any differences are pure luck.
I really like to upgrade elephants & griffons after nature's revolt - and get heroic promotions for free.

Only thing I can think of to reduce spiders numbers is to remove lairs, but I would like not to do it. Unless you think it is broken as it is.

I have seen beasts, but no TumTum so far. But I do not play that much.
By the way, in the next patch I will include Xienwolf's fix that completly separates animals & barbarians (in spawning at least), also it makes animals spawn the entire game.
The farm problem is the most dire now, I do not know what the reason is. I try to find why AI likes cottages so much. It helps with research, but I am not sure if it is good in the long run. It was somehow changed it ffh 0.34 so it is in Orbi from 0.14.
I am going to improve plantations with a tech, I also thought of improving farms (possibility to get 3 extra food? but it can be broken)
I agree that yurt line is too good. I will check your suggestions. I am not sure about hills, as it stops all civs from building them on desert hills. Also, hills are supposed to be the best location for aduar, especially from flavor perspective (fortified town in a valley)

Quarries are required for salt also, not just marble. I think that mines might suit salt better, but I do not want to get rid of quarries.
How about quarry buildable everywhere. Or even limit mines to resource only improvement, and make quarry a basic mine improvement (with a possibility to discover all mineral resources, but no bonus from mine ones? - that will make you change quarry to mine when the resource is discovered). I always wandered what do they mine if there are no resources? Stone? If so, quarry it is.

Unfortunatelly, I do not think there is a way to make two techs discover one resource. So either pearls are for everyone (revealed with fishing perhaps) and lanun get another bonus (aquafarms? bonus for combat for ships?), or it stays as it is.

I am not sure I like the current implemetations of millers and prospectors? Maybe the current mechanics should be removed and another put in. That can be completly different mechanics. I thought of making guild-specific buildings provide bonus to discovery chance (the passive one), but so far no idea how to code it.
The other possibility is to up a discovery chance to 25%, and make prospecting & breeding require money (40 gold?). That would make it more predictable, reduce micro-menagement, also you would have to pay for the resource. I am not sure how would it work with Khazad, though, and they are supposed to be good at prospecting (reduced price plus a block to not let them cast it if they do not have enough money for the vaults?)

 

[Wauthan]

Good answers all around.

I don't think it's needed to nerf spiders. Adds challenge and a neat thematic bottleneck function, since spiders are mostly stationary and predictable. And since the AI can't see them they eventually whittle their numbers down simply because they keep sending units to claim the "unguarded" lair.

Separating animals and barbarians sound most excellent. On behalf of Dovellio and Ljosalfar everywhere I thank you.

The "no yurts on hills" statement was written before I thought of changing their bonus. It was because adding two production on top of every plains hill gave a solid bonus (not granted in FFH before mines upgrades with gunpowder). Elves got a further +1 hammer since they can place yurts in forests.

6 food floodplains sound a little over the top. Farms already spawn resources, and some guilds add food bonuses, so food shortages are not that common. Huge cities are fun but small cities provide more reason to specialize.

I like your idea about quarries. I never thought about it but you do make a good point. What do they mine in those empty hills? This would also speed up early game and give an advantage to the Civs that start with Masonry. Also boosts the Slavery civic considerably while knocking down Arete a peg.

Pearls for everyone was just an idea. With all the other changes Lanun might actually need their bonus just to stay competitive.

Just an idea about Millers and Prospectors but how about they gain a city only spell (Bartering) that grants a random resource to the city tile, that ceases to function if they move away. This sort of symbolizes that you are trading with the guild to gain the resource, since you need to pay upkeep for the unit. It puts a limit on how many resources you can get, one per city. And this advantage can be disrupted with a quick assassination, with both units having defensive strength 1 and can not be upgraded. Trouble is that I have no idea if the AI even uses the city spells (like Inspiration). If it works you could even expand it to the other guilds as well, with each guildmaster unit providing their guildspecific resources.

I guess it could also be used to sort of balance the multiguild problem if you only get the guild bonus if you got a "bartering" guildmaster in the city. And you can only have one guildmaster active at the time. Sounds like a lot of work though so I reckon it's a very impractical idea.

 

[Caradoc]

I really like to upgrade elephants & griffons after nature's revolt - and get heroic promotions for free.

Free heroic promotions, you say? How does that work?

As to Pearls: How about starting Lanun with Fishing and making Sailing the requirement for Pearls?