Other Civs encrouching on my borders!

[jonnyincognito]

Hey All,

I have another question, what's the rules governing when and how another Civ can place a city near mine? It seems that they can place a city on a square and push back my borders with it, which kind of sucks because at times it's taken resources I had control over. Generally this happens with a city that has expanded it's cultural border two or three times past the original nine city boxes. The've even managed to push back my border to only being one square away from the city once IIRC. It's pretty annoying to have an AI pop a settler on that one square of your island that isn't covered by your border and push everything back.

I'm also worried when I see him with settlers in my land. Can they just build a city within my border and gain territory that I control??? I'm playing Complete (came with PtW and C3C) if that makes a difference.


Joshua

 

[Brain]

I have another question, what's the rules governing when and how another Civ can place a city near mine? It seems that they can place a city on a square and push back my borders with it, which kind of sucks because at times it's taken resources I had control over. Generally this happens with a city that has expanded it's cultural border two or three times past the original nine city boxes. The've even managed to push back my border to only being one square away from the city once IIRC. It's pretty annoying to have an AI pop a settler on that one square of your island that isn't covered by your border and push everything back.

Do the same thing to them!

The AI often leaves big gaps between their cities, which allows you to squeeze in. In my current game I succeeded in beating the AI to iron in this way. I immediately made one worker join the city to pop-rush a temple and avoid a culture flip. You should consider rushing culture buildings in situations like this.

I'm also worried when I see him with settlers in my land. Can they just build a city within my border and gain territory that I control??? I'm playing Complete (came with PtW and C3C) if that makes a difference.

I beleive it is possible, but only if they are at war with you.

 

[Grogs]

I'll answer your last question first: You can't build a city within another nation's borders, and the AI cannot build one within yours.

Now, having said that, you *can* build a city on any unclaimed (neutral) piece of land, regardless of where it is (excepting certain types of terrain.) For example, I once had a large section of desert in the middle of my empire. There was probably about a 2x2 area of unclaimed tiles right in the center of my empire and the AI just walked in and grabbed it. Short of spamming the ruler with the 'Remove your forces or declare war' option, there was no way I could stop them.

As far as the borders of a city, the size of the borders is determined by the amount of culture a city has. Initially a city has a radius of size 1, that is 1 row of tiles around the city. Once the city starts building cultural buildings (the palace in the capital, temples, libraries, etc.) that border will expand. At 10 culture, the city becomes size 2 (2 tile border). At 100 culture it becomes size 3, and so on. When the radius of 2 cities from different nations overlap, it seems to be a bit of a complex formula, but in general I would say the city with the highest culture wins.

If the AI plops down a city 2 tiles away from yours and crunches your borders down to right beside your city, it's probably because he's amassed culture in the city and you have none. On the positive side, you can also use this technique to claim a resource just inside the AI's borders. Just plop a city down right beside the resource, build a library or temple, and hopefully when your cultural influence expands it will encompass the resource.

 

[jonnyincognito]

What seems to happen is that I have a city with 10 culture or 100 culture (giving me a border 2 or 3 squares away respectively). The AI will build a city one square away from my border, and his culture 1 radius pushes mine back. That's what's irritating. I could understand if he had some super city pushing my borders back, but when he originally creates the city he seems to automatically get the 1 square radius regardless of my culture. Theoretically, with this ability, he could continue to pop a city right next to last one and push me back repeatedly. Not that he does, but that doesnt seem right. I'd be happier if he just got the one open square of beach that he landed on instead of pushing back my borders so I loose six squares!


Joshua

 

[tR1cKy]

Go to war and kill'em all!

 

[sealman]

Next time - stick a unit on that one tile, then you don't have to worry about it.

edit: but you are correct, it is irritating. But then again, you can do the same to him.

 

[Brain]

Theoretically, with this ability, he could continue to pop a city right next to last one and push me back repeatedly.

No, that's not possible. Cities must have at least one tile separating them.

 

[SJ Frank]

The rules of who gets which tile is quite simple:

- Look at the tiles around a city in terms of "rings". The first ring consists of the 8 tiles around a newly found city. The second ring is the tiles that you get from the first culture expansion. The third ring is the tiles that you get from the second culture expansion, etc.

- A tile is "in dispute" when the culture border from cities of 2 different civs has grown enough to cover the tile.

- When a tile is in dispute, a higher ring will never beat a lower ring. For example, if a tile is in the 2nd ring for your city, and 3rd ring for the AI's city, then you will always get that tile. Another way to say it: if the tile is closer to your city, then it's yours.

- If the ring ranking is equal, then the city with higher total culture will win the tile. Pretty intuitive.

- If the ring ranking and culture are both equal (most likely because neither city has culture), then the oldest city gets the tile.

Edit: Answer to the original question "what rule governs where the AI can settle?"

The AI will never settle a city that has first-ring conflict.

That's pretty much the only rule that I've seen, that, and they will never settle on your land, not even during war.

 

[bonscott]

I used this strat myself in my most current game. There were gems just inside the border of the civ next to me which had already grown out once. I plop down a city right on the border next to the gems and I get the gems for myself. I rush in multiple culture improvements.

About 1000 years later the AI city actually flipped to me because I had put so much culture pressure on it from that new city plus two others nearby. The AI is bad at recognizing a cultural attack and doing something about it.

 

[Jason Fliegel]

The rules of who gets which tile is quite simple:

- Look at the tiles around a city in terms of "rings". The first ring consists of the 8 tiles around a newly found city. The second ring is the tiles that you get from the first culture expansion. The third ring is the tiles that you get from the second culture expansion, etc.

- A tile is "in dispute" when the culture border from cities of 2 different civs has grown enough to cover the tile.

- When a tile is in dispute, a higher ring will never beat a lower ring. For example, if a tile is in the 2nd ring for your city, and 3rd ring for the AI's city, then you will always get that tile. Another way to say it: if the tile is closer to your city, then it's yours.

- If the ring ranking is equal, then the city with higher total culture will win the tile. Pretty intuitive.

- If the ring ranking and culture are both equal (most likely because neither city has culture), then the oldest city gets the tile.

I think what you've posted is generally true, but I think there are some other rules that apply when you've got overwhelming culture. I know that when I've had situations in which I "squeezed" an AI cultural zone literally down to the city aquare plus one other square. Maybe I'm misremembering, and the way I did that was by ringing his city with cities of my own, but I thought I pushed him back by expanding the culture of cities that were 3 or 4 squares away from his city.

 

[Rohirrim]

I had an interesting experience the other day. A Celt galley sailed up to a cove between two cities I had seperated by four tiles. There was a promontory in the middle of it. I moved a cavalry unit out to the promontory and fortified him there. On the next turn, the galley sailed away instead of landing. Never had that happen before. If you can't block them completely, they just usually walk right past you and plop a city.

 

[jonnyincognito]

Thanks for sheading light on the subject SJ Frank...that makes sense in all the situations I had.

As for doing the block, I didn't expect the AI to come out of nowhere with a galley and drop a settler. I had to go back as far as I could in my auto saves to be able to get my troops there in time and block him It worked, but was still annoying. It's when their borders push yours back because they pop a city next to the border that's the most irritating.

Now that I understand how it works though, I see the only course of action is to build cities two squares apart along the borders I share with the AI as soon as possible


Joshua

 

[Tomoyo]

If your borders have expanded to third level and you still haven't settled a city where the AI did, you've done something very wrong.

 

[tR1cKy]

jonny, when i was a warlord player i hated this AS attitude so much, now something like that would be quite welcome (easy prey), but unfortunately i don't leave enough space anymore for the AS to settle on.

OFF TOPIC: the 8th was correct! why?!?

 

[DBear]

Check out The Eight Laws of Border Dynamics

 

[Tomoyo]

OFF TOPIC: the 8th was correct! why?!?

I don't know... Can you think of a smooth way to say it otherwise?

 

[wilbill]

I'll answer your last question first: You can't build a city within another nation's borders, and the AI cannot build one within yours.

Actually you can, but it's considered a declaration of war with the AI and ROP rape and destroying your reputation. It's also considered by most players to be an exploit since the AI can't or won't do it.

 

[tR1cKy]

Actually you can, but it's considered a declaration of war with the AI and ROP rape and destroying your reputation...

If you're already at war with that civ your reputation should remain intact (can someone confirm this?)

I don't know... Can you think of a smooth way to say it otherwise?

maybe eight... just to write it differently

 

[Tomoyo]

If you're already at war with that civ your reputation should remain intact (can someone confirm this?)

In Ank11, we built a lot of cities in enemy territory, but I don't think that was what broke our rep... Can't tell for sure, though.

 

[eldar]

The AI will build a city in another Civ's borders in one situation (I've witnessed this btw): If they are reduced to a single settler, they will settle in place (if they can), wherever the settler is. The one time I saw this happen, a Persian city appeared smack in the middle of the Iroquois lands. Of course it was a DoW and they didn't last very long afterwards.