Ottoman

[Funak]

So for now it is between:

1. All tiles that at least one trade-route passes over within your territory provides an extra 1 gold

or

2. Starts with an extra trade-route.


Personally either one is fine by me, as is any other suggestion.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

So for now it is between:

1. All tiles that at least one trade-route passes over within your territory provides an extra 1 gold

or

2. Starts with an extra trade-route.


Personally either one is fine by me, as is any other suggestion.

Yeah. I really like both of them. Either is fine by me, as well. I have no preference; they'll both be useful. Just definitely don't use both. That's too much.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I feel 1 would be better for helping early on, for where the UA struggles a little.

Do you feel Portugal could use the 2nd? I feel that they could use a boost now that Carthage took their Gold bonus from TRs. Before you can get Compass for both of their Uniques, your 3 TRs give 6 or 12 Science and GG/ GA points. (In my game I just got to Compass.)

 

[Takagi Hiro]

I feel 1 would be better for helping early on, for where the UA struggles a little.

Do you feel Portugal could use the 2nd? I feel that they could use a boost now that Carthage took their Gold bonus from TRs. Before you can get Compass for both of their Uniques, your 3 TRs give 6 or 12 Science and GG/ GA points. (In my game I just got to Compass.)

I think Portugal is fine. The fact that they are receiving science every time a trade route moves is very strong... on top of other bonuses! But that's just my opinion.

 

[NerdExtrodinare]

The Ottomans seem really, really powerful now with their bonus at the end of trade routes. I love this idea, it's really awesome, but in any game they end up with anywhere between 5-10 more techs than other computers who are doing quite well. They've out teched Korea in games I've played.

 

[Funak]

Rarely ever see the AI-ottomans perform out of the ordinary, most of the time they are on the bottom half of the table. Sometimes they start next to a weak neighbor and conquers them early on and get ahead in that way, but that's kinda how most civs work.

 

[Rean]

Just played a game as Ottomans and quite enjoyed it. Their UA was rather interesting to mess around with, syncing it up to get multiple production boosts at once to basically act as a pseudo-Great Engineer for wonders was fun and felt quite strong, and the food helped my very food-starved capital to keep up in growth. The science wasn't as noticeable but it probably contributed a good bit to me tech lead for essentially the entire game.

Didn't really run any internal trade routes though, didn't really need too and the bonus from external ones seems a lot stronger. But I could see a strategy like going for multiple internal trade routes early to get policies for something like Alhambra working out.

Siege Foundry was a solid buff to my siege units, it helped me overpower Assyria to get my conquering started. It'd prolly be more useful in a game where I needed to constantly replace my siege but that wasn't really the case this game.

The Janissaries were incredibly strong and them being available at Gunpowder helps massively. Probably one of the strongest UU's in the game IMO.

 

[NerdExtrodinare]

I haven't looked deeply enough to be able to say "strongest UU" I probably put Pathfinder as "best" just for choosing goody huts and if you find a good amount, wow, but I agree, Janissaries are pretty unreasonably powerful.

 

[Funak]

Figured I'd have another go at this.


UU
Same as before, truth be told I'm still not 100% sold on the use for March on these ranged units, but the unit is solid, so no reason to change it.


UA
Since people seem to think this UA is actually powerful, something that I can't see at all I figured I'd just change it slightly this time instead of replacing it.

First of all, I'm really not a fan of getting different rewards for international compared to internal trade-routes, especially considering the internal reward just feel inferior in every way. The key here is that you could either just keep the international yields for all routes or you should change the yields received to cover all yields (and lower the number received of course). I honestly don't really care either way I would just like for the routes to be equal so you don't feel forced to run one over the other.

Second, I would like to move the UB ability to the UA, while it is a pretty fun ability for a building to have, it feels pretty weird with the timing it unlocks and how you're only getting real benefit out of the UB when you're building siegeweapons, which is clearly a fraction of the time, especially if you count all cities.
Having the ability on the UA instead also makes sure that even catapult rushes can benefit from the Ottoman sieging-expertise without you having to make a detour to Ironworking and spend time building the forge up.
This would of course also require a lowering of the yields received from the trade-route part of the UA, but I think it creates a rather interesting dynamic of one side being conquest based and one side not really wanting to piss off potential trade-partners. This duality already exists of course.


UB
Completely rework, with the sieging ability going to the UA there is no reason to keep this building around. It sorta unlocked at a weird timing anyways, Ottoman feels more like a medieval to industiral era empire than a classical one.

One idea would be to use the new and shiny Baths building and make a proper Turkish bath UB, I've got some ideas I'm working on but I'm not going to write them out until I at least get something of a seal of approval towards the UA thing, wasted way too much time writing suggestions already.


So, as a general idea, thoughts?

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I would be more ok with the UA giving different Yields if they were equal (make the Internal ones give 150).

As I see it, the UA is only a means to an end: using Catapults to rush an early neighbor while trying to secure the Petra and Colossus for more UA use.

So would the new UA give the effect of the old UB? It would make Catapult rushes easier as you wouldn't need Iron Working or the Statue of Zeus.

 

[Gazebo]

Figured I'd have another go at this.


UU
Same as before, truth be told I'm still not 100% sold on the use for March on these ranged units, but the unit is solid, so no reason to change it.


UA
Since people seem to think this UA is actually powerful, something that I can't see at all I figured I'd just change it slightly this time instead of replacing it.

First of all, I'm really not a fan of getting different rewards for international compared to internal trade-routes, especially considering the internal reward just feel inferior in every way. The key here is that you could either just keep the international yields for all routes or you should change the yields received to cover all yields (and lower the number received of course). I honestly don't really care either way I would just like for the routes to be equal so you don't feel forced to run one over the other.

Second, I would like to move the UB ability to the UA, while it is a pretty fun ability for a building to have, it feels pretty weird with the timing it unlocks and how you're only getting real benefit out of the UB when you're building siegeweapons, which is clearly a fraction of the time, especially if you count all cities.
Having the ability on the UA instead also makes sure that even catapult rushes can benefit from the Ottoman sieging-expertise without you having to make a detour to Ironworking and spend time building the forge up.
This would of course also require a lowering of the yields received from the trade-route part of the UA, but I think it creates a rather interesting dynamic of one side being conquest based and one side not really wanting to piss off potential trade-partners. This duality already exists of course.


UB
Completely rework, with the sieging ability going to the UA there is no reason to keep this building around. It sorta unlocked at a weird timing anyways, Ottoman feels more like a medieval to industiral era empire than a classical one.

One idea would be to use the new and shiny Baths building and make a proper Turkish bath UB, I've got some ideas I'm working on but I'm not going to write them out until I at least get something of a seal of approval towards the UA thing, wasted way too much time writing suggestions already.


So, as a general idea, thoughts?

I guess the question is: why? Your changes don't actually, well, change the way you'd play the Ottomans.

The fact that the UA has different yields for internal/external TRs is intentional - external should be stronger because risk is higher.

I personally don't see anything wrong with the Ottomans - this feels like 'change for change.'

G

 

[Funak]

I guess the question is: why? Your changes don't actually, well, change the way you'd play the Ottomans.

Well, we have an entire UB left to change things with.
In general I don't see that much of a problem with how the Ottomans are played, I have a problem with the concentration of power in those two abilities. The UA being completely reliant on trade-routes finishing their routes puts you in such a terrible spot if you get them pillaged at the wrong time that you might as well reload or quit the game. The Moroccan UA is risky, the Portuguese UA is risky, the Ottoman UA is just way too risky. I personally think the UA is one of the absolute worst in the game just because of that risk-factor, but since I can't seem to convince anyone to either remove it or just buff it, I figured I'd compromise and tune it down, thereby tuning the risk down, less yields lost on a screwup means less risk.

Moving the ability from the UB, which a lot of people have called boring and which I think shows up way too early for a civ such as the Ottomans, keeps the feeling of the civ the same while giving us room to work in a more stable solution on the form of a new UB.
Besides, from my experience it's a lot easier to design a good UB than a good UA (not counting the fact that we would need art). I feel like the Hamam as a replacement for the regular Baths would fit that slot pretty well, both in timing and in feel. I mean most people have heard of Turkish baths.

The fact that the UA has different yields for internal/external TRs is intentional - external should be stronger because risk is higher.

So let them provide the same yields but slightly less of them in that case? I don't really think this would be that much of a problem, I mean most people run international trade-routes anyways since they are way more beneficial.

I personally don't see anything wrong with the Ottomans - this feels like 'change for change.'

There's a surprise.

 

[Gazebo]

There's a surprise.

I was willing to discuss this in spite of my reservations until you said this. Too bad. Sassing the people that do this stuff for you for free, is a good way to get your input ignored.

G

 

[Funak]

I was willing to discuss this in spite of my reservations until you said this.

No you weren't, you made that pretty clear.

 

[pandasnail]

Okay, so putting aside the interpersonal emotional stuff between you two, I agree with Funak that the Siege Foundry is a bad building and that the UA isn't good enough with all that risk to make up for it. The Jan is great great great, at least if the game I got them thru JFD Mercs is an indication. (Trying Ottoman, I always get wrecked or frustrated by then.) But I just don't see the value in the building. I know how to keep my siegecraft safe, so I'm just not building enough for increased build speed to matter whatsoever. Maybe it helps the AI more, but for me its literally just the Free Volley, which is not enough in a UB, especially one not exactly paired with the Mongol UA or the Mayan UA.

I will say we almost shouldn't call it a Classical building, since unless you get it early thru Zeus, its really about setting up a Medieval and Ren attack. I just don't think its good enough at it. Getting rid of the faster build, adding Volley to the UA, and giving Ottoman Turks a new UB with some consistent bonus of some sort makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Gazebo]

Okay, so putting aside the interpersonal emotional stuff between you two, I agree with Funak that the Siege Foundry is a bad building and that the UA isn't good enough with all that risk to make up for it. The Jan is great great great, at least if the game I got them thru JFD Mercs is an indication. (Trying Ottoman, I always get wrecked or frustrated by then.) But I just don't see the value in the building. I know how to keep my siegecraft safe, so I'm just not building enough for increased build speed to matter whatsoever. Maybe it helps the AI more, but for me its literally just the Free Volley, which is not enough in a UB, especially one not exactly paired with the Mongol UA or the Mayan UA.

I will say we almost shouldn't call it a Classical building, since unless you get it early thru Zeus, its really about setting up a Medieval and Ren attack. I just don't think its good enough at it. Getting rid of the faster build, adding Volley to the UA, and giving Ottoman Turks a new UB with some consistent bonus of some sort makes a lot of sense to me.

The Forge is a great building - a better Forge is great, especially since extra Production goes towards everything. I could add more Production to it to give it a broader role if we feel that's worthwhile, however I honestly don't feel that the Ottomans are at a 'scrap it all and start over' place. Tweaks are fine, naturally, but the current trend around here seems to be one of 'scorched earth' in some places.

G

 

[pandasnail]

The Forge is a great building - a better Forge is great, especially since extra Production goes towards everything. I could add more Production to it to give it a broader role if we feel that's worthwhile, however I honestly don't feel that the Ottomans are at a 'scrap it all and start over' place. Tweaks are fine, naturally, but the current trend around here seems to be one of 'scorched earth' in some places.

G

In all but one or maybe two cities, its nothing but a Forge. I admit I can't remember if it has an extra yield right now, but being something I build anyway isn't really a plus when its adding hardly anything to satellite cities. I definitely think it needs something else that will matter more in city five if you want to keep it. I'd prefer something new in this instance, something that could replace the faster siege entirely tho.

I do agree with you that most civs that feel finished (or close) to me. I quite like the Burial Tomb for instance, feels fun and flavorful to put my conquests in Museums. The only things I would argue for changing significantly (I think) are the Siege Foundry, the Smithsonian, the Winged Hussar, and the Cossack. And the time or two I've brought up the promotion on those last two, no one's agreed with me, so I've just edited the Cossack for myself.

 

[Glidergun]

In all but one or maybe two cities, its nothing but a Forge. I admit I can't remember if it has an extra yield right now, but being something I build anyway isn't really a plus when its adding hardly anything to satellite cities. I definitely think it needs something else that will matter more in city five if you want to keep it. I'd prefer something new in this instance, something that could replace the faster siege entirely tho.

Siege Foundry has +2 production compared to base foundry. I think giving it a point or two of science wouldn't be far out of line, and would make it feel a lot nicer if you don't need more siege at the moment.

 

[Gazebo]

In all but one or maybe two cities, its nothing but a Forge. I admit I can't remember if it has an extra yield right now, but being something I build anyway isn't really a plus when its adding hardly anything to satellite cities. I definitely think it needs something else that will matter more in city five if you want to keep it. I'd prefer something new in this instance, something that could replace the faster siege entirely tho.

I do agree with you that most civs that feel finished (or close) to me. I quite like the Burial Tomb for instance, feels fun and flavorful to put my conquests in Museums. The only things I would argue for changing significantly (I think) are the Siege Foundry, the Smithsonian, the Winged Hussar, and the Cossack. And the time or two I've brought up the promotion on those last two, no one's agreed with me, so I've just edited the Cossack for myself.

What's wrong with the Smithsonian? It now orients with Freedom so 'murica' can be free once more.

Winged Hussar and Cossack- no one has brought them up before. Sup?

Siege Foundry has +2 production compared to base foundry. I think giving it a point or two of science wouldn't be far out of line, and would make it feel a lot nicer if you don't need more siege at the moment.

How about science from creating military units? Could be a nice buff for the Ottomans.

G

 

[pandasnail]

What's wrong with the Smithsonian? It now orients with Freedom so 'murica' can be free once more.

Sounds like I missed a change, my bad then. Still comes sooooo late tho.

Winged Hussar and Cossack- no one has brought them up before. Sup?

I thought I had at some point, but maybe I forgot. I just really don't like that promotion that can sometimes move enemies out of killing range and help them retreat. With the WH, it can even get stuck too forward in positions I don't want it. Sorta like that Leroy Jenkins meme.

How about science from creating military units? Could be a nice buff for the Ottomans.

G

I do like it, its not my absolute favorite, it stills focuses on a small number of cities, but so does the Ikanda and that's great anyway. I don't have a better compromise idea in any event.