Overpowered Spearmen

The Last Conformist - I want the warriors to kill spearmen more often, make them weaker. Okay, this is a matter for discussion, but I hope you at least liked the idea for ships better.

Your solution is very good, and perfectly explainable with the "law of big numbers", this should reduce streaks of bad luck even more: 30 HP for regular troops. 40 for vets then... this will probably work. I do not know if it is possibly to change that with the civ3 editor and test it.



One more thing for all others that read this thread: It is not about the spearman killing the tank, it is a -metaphora- for incredible combat results and incredible streaks of bad luck like losing dozens of fresh troops against a redlined defender.
 
I didn't dislike the Warrior/Spearman idea, but was of the impression you thought combat was too random in that instance - of course lessening the difference will lead to closer to 50% either way. I quite agree that early naval combat values could be more exciting.

Max hitpoints that can be set for an experience level is 20, and the max HP bonus is +20. Thus 40 HP is the absolute max that can be achieved for a single unit. You will want to turn off combat animations if you implement that sort of HP counts ...

You might want to try some intermediate level too - 15/12/9/6 already gives a much more predictible combat environment than the standard settings.
 
HP would have to drop more rapid, right - otherwise a single fight would take quite some time. :)

I am looking forward to see with what they will come up for Civ 4, but I have the fear that it will mainly be cartoonish graphics in the style of the recently announced Pirates! remake. Seems to be a trend of the gaming industry these days. :>
 
In the spirit of constructive criticism, I'll elaborate on what I think needs to be done.

First, the battle system randomness needs to be toned down a little bit. Not much, mind you. I can't say I agree with the 40HP idea - it would take all randomness out of the game. This game needs some randomness. If it doesn't, I don't think it would correctly represent the idea of a war, and it would lead to a lack of excitement due to already knowing exactly how the battle is going to end up. However, it currently has too much randomness. I would like to see it where, on occasion, a cavalry unit withstands charges from an enemy cavalry unit of twice the size. It just shouldn't happen this often.

Speaking with numbers, I think it might solve the problem if you changed the HP values to this:
Conscript: 5
Regular: 6
Veteran: 7
Elite: 8

That would make the battles less random, yet still have an intrinsic amount of uncertainty built in, especially on those close battles, like Medieval Infantry vs. Swiss Pikemen on grasslands, unfortified.

Secondly, and this is not something that could possibly be implimented until Civ. 4, having a tech lead should make a much bigger difference. When you look at it in real life, like I said, a unit of A1-Abrams is worth more than twenty four (24) units of stone age warriors. Personally, it should be worth about seventy two (72) units of the same stone age warriors. And this should apply in smaller degrees when considering smaller technology jumps. Technology has always made a huge difference on the battlefield. Hitler lost the Battle of Britain because Britain developed radar. Knights disappeared very fast when pikemen appeared. Widespread use of crossbows made long bows practically obsolete, and led to the downfall of platemail. The fact is, if you can develop a new battle technology before your opponent and successfully implement it, you should dominate your opponent.

However, this exaggerates another problem already in existance in Civ. 3 - that once you're ahead, you stay ahead. This problem has been mentioned elsewhere in these forums. My solution is simple: that your enemy can have your tech's "leaked" to them without much trouble. Think about it. If your army of French Knights goes up against an army of English Longbowmen and gets obliterated, once the battle has been lost, wouldn't you think that you could easily find out how to organize an army of Longbowmen by simply examining their longbows and how they fought? It doesn't take years of research to emulate something that has already been done. Only in the most severe cases of secrets is this so. In fact, the only example of this that I can find is very recent, and that is nuclear power. This was a heavily guarded secret of all the nations who knew it, so alot of nations still don't know how to make nukes.

All of this, though, adds up to four things which needs to be added in order to successfully emulate this in a game of Civ. Firstly, all techs must be separated into two categories - techs which the general populace would know (Type 1), and techs which the general populace wouldn't (Type 2). They would know of iron working and bronze working and map making (shipbuilding) - many common professions were based on these techs. They wouldn't know of literature and philosophy - those were reserved for the upper class. Secondly, if you have a border with another country, if you jave a certain Type 1 tech and that country is currently researching that particular tech, there is a significant chance that your knowledge would diffuse across the border and give them a bonus to researching it - up to three quartes of the tech, depending on how big the leak was. Thirdly, you could reduce the chance and severity of a leak if you highly garrison your border cities with military police, the more, the better. Type 2 techs would have to be researched separately, or stolen. Fourthly and finally, stealing techs needs to be made cheaper, and espionage should be made available long before nationalism. Sun Tzu had spies in 2000 BC for crying out loud. The entire thirteenth chapter of the Art of War dealt with using spies.

The final component of making it harder to maintain a lead deals with revolutions, but that is not something I'm done thinking with, and is much more complex.

All of this boils down to these four things:
1. Battles need to be made a bit less random, but still somewhat uncertain.
2. Having a tech lead should net far greater success on the battlefield.
3. It should be much harder to keep a tech lead.
4. It should be possible to keep a tech lead through use of severe measures, if you were determined enough.

WOW, that was a long post.
 
After watching The Last Samurai this weekend, I am 100% convinced that a spearman should be able to defeat a tank. :D
 
and any Elf defeat War elephants; right? :crazyeye:
 
In the spirit of constructive criticism, I'll elaborate on what I think needs to be done:


Nothing! The combat system is perfectly fine the way it is. It has been tested hundreds & hundreds of times, and it only seems streaky. It's not, the mind will play tricks on you & find patterns in random occurrences(like the first & last hp being so tough to crack. Or losing 2 times, then winning a couple).

War is chaotic, war is unpredictable, war is one statistical anomaly after another. Why should Civ's war be so predictable & obvious. You beyond a shadow of a doubt control every other aspect of your empire 100%, something has to be random to put an element of chance in. Taking the randomness out of warfare would make the game mind numbingly boring. "Ha ha! I have Swords/Cavs/Tanks/MA/any one of about 15 offensive UUs before anyone else........... I win!" Sounds fun.:rolleyes:

I pray that Firaxis doesn't listen to the constant complaining and take out corruption, culture flips, or the RNG being just that..........random. Those are the things in the game that have me shouting at the monitor at 3am ready to throw my mouse through a wall, and the game is 100x better because of them. (well corruption doesn't piss me off, but enough people @#$@ about it that's for sure.)

And for the record: I'm right, and everyone that thinks otherwise is wrong. End of story.


:joke: about that last part, of course.
 
Gengis Khan said:
In the spirit of constructive criticism, I'll elaborate on what I think needs to be done:

Nothing! The combat system is perfectly fine the way it is.

Hey neighbor! I do agree with you 1000%. Random events are what makes thise game especially fun and unique...

GO WOLFPACK! :crazyeye:
 
Yeah randomness is part of the game but it would still be nice to see a different culture flipping mechanism where units weren't destroyed completely when a city flips and spearmen automatically upgrading to a unit with the same stats but a modern appearance and name when the civ gains the necessary techs.
 
I still hope for *lots* of changes for Civ4 - not only regarding the very basic and random combat system of Civ3. This game is quite at the end of developement.

But I really want them to fix submarines and AI armies in Civ3 before abandoning all support and developement - there is already a thread running regarding this topic.
 
Gengis Khan said:
In the spirit of constructive criticism, I'll elaborate on what I think needs to be done:


Nothing! The combat system is perfectly fine the way it is.
Really? You're perfectly happy with good, when you could have better?

And, just to defend a point that isn't even mine, combat can be very exciting when it has absolutely no randomness involved. If you don't think so, check out Massive Assault. The most random thing in that game is the AI, and yet it still is one of the best strategy games I have ever played.
 
Chess is another example. Massive Assault's AI is rather clever, too. Still I did not fall too much in love with that game, but that is a different matter.
 
To completely get rid of randomness there would have to be an increase in the number of units and they would have to be far more specialised to create a situation like chess where units can only be used in certain ways. You cannot keep large stacks of the same unit whilst getting rid of randomness and still have a reasonably complex game...
 
Longasc said:
Chess is another example. Massive Assault's AI is rather clever, too. Still I did not fall too much in love with that game, but that is a different matter.
I loved the game, personally, even if it was a little slow and had a very sharp learning curve.

And yeah, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't think Civ3 combat should be without randomness. It would ruin the game. Randomness is good, it just needs to be a little less extreme as it is in Civ3.
 
I think they get better with the randomness in each Civ game. In Civ 1 I remember losing a Battleship to a Phalanx. And Phalanx seemed to be great at mowing down unlucky Armors. Randomness does add a bit of interest to the game. Just keep you're lucky items sitting by your computer at all times...
 
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