P666-01 Fix the Trash Game

[Petrucci]

Alright this is turning out to be as fun as I had envisioned!

To Cabert, Cam and Pigswill you are all three excellent players have read many of your insights you have posted I consider everyword you guys mention to be of top shelf quality so to avoid too much more brown nosing, I'll just say that you are all qualified for "expert" in my mind and look forward to the advice and decisions you make! Very well suited for this thread! Now I won't complain if we get a Civ savant who can random deity level and launch in the 1500's to chime in, but I'm happy as things stand personally.

Let the games continue!

Oh yes and Hail Vudu queen!

 

[cabert]

thanks petrucci, welcome to queen vudu, ...

I'm afraid 40 turns may turn out to be too short to actually see much difference . I've read the various posts (can't open the saves right now) and don't see an obvious "trash game" to fix.
It's gonna be some hard work to select the "worst" game...

 

[Petrucci]

Hard to tell during the initial first 1 or 2 settlers, I felt the same way. I think once the arrows start flying and the shields begin clashing that is where the will begin to show, at least for me.

I've also been having thoughts on voting. I'm assuming the mon/emp players will be doing this? If so then perhaps those voting would need a bit more than a turn log, perhaps at the least (contained in spoiler tags of course) a small synopsis reported by those submitting much like Mice Vudu and myself have done so far. This synopsis will explain choices they made and where they are going, hope this isn't asking too much of those submitting save files! I would just imagine it would be hard to look at a save file and a turn log and think, "Hmmm this is and this is ."

As it stands it is workable, but would like to be better prepared for what to do at the end of the next submission date, so I can take a few notes or screen shots if needed, not to mention make it fun and informative for those who are reading my posts!

 

[pigswill]

Heavily edited from original post. (original post copied in cabert's post below)

Playing from my saves rather than other people's good/trash saves.

Round 1. 4000bc-2400bc

Spoiler :

Started by moving settler south to see what was near the hills, found tundra, oops! I thought, so I settled away from tundra on a grasslands tile. Lucky to find this put in a deer in fat cross. Went for agric/worker to get some growth so I could work the metals. Built a settler, found a tasty spot north with more gold! Gonna hafta wait for a border pop wot will require some culture. Tech wise went agriculture, bronze, mysticism, archery, polytheism, priesthood heading towards oracle . Scout ran into a lion and started a second career as lunch before he could explore much. One goody hut for a small amount of gold.
At this point I'm doing ok for research, Hamburg will be very tasty once developed (2 food, ivory, 2 gold) and will end up as Confucian holy city if I get to CoL first. Main problem is no copper and not much exploring so I'll have to explore more and hopefully find some copper. I like exploring with archers because their survival chances are much higher, instead of getting killed they're likely to get promotions.

Round2. 2400bc-875bc

Spoiler :

It has to be said that I played this after round 2 of the proper game; while it isn't a clone of cabert's round and we were playing the same kind of round anyway it would be dishonest to say that I did not pick up useful ideas particularly around stonehenge for border pops and getting granary and AH early. Having said that the mistakes are all my own.
I started off the round with two cities (Berlin established, Hamburg just founded) and finished the round with two cities (a settler one turn from city#3).
In terms of research it went wheel 2320bc, pottery 2120bc, AH 1960bc, writing 1760bc, CoL 1120bc, fishing 1080bc, (CS slingshot from oracle 1000bc), meditation 950bc, heading towards alphabet.
Berlin built five archers, a worker (mainly by whip overflow from archers), a granary, a barracks and a settler (also making use of whip overflow so as to minimise lost growth) and is currently building a worker.
Hamburg built stonehenge in 1600bc, used two chops to speed it up (with industrious you get 30 hammers per chop for wonders) and oracle (I stopped off quickly in 1320 to whip a granary) completed in 1000bc. Just about finished a barracks.
Overall I had few problems with barbarians, made use of archers for fog-busting. Managed a bit more exploration. Civics wise I went to slavery in 1360bc and bureaucracy in 975 after CS slingshot.
In terms of diplomacy everyone's cautious to us. Napoleon is pleased with Kublai and cautious with Isabella. Isabella is annoyed with Kublai and cautious with Napoleon. Kublai is cautious with Isabella and pleased with Napoleon. Only Isabella has a religion at this point (buddhism) so there's no obvious reason for the early diplomatic splits.
Generally speaking a period of peaceful teching and minor exploration. CS Slingshot is nice.One turn away from third city which has copper available. One minor faux pas is that I neglected to connect Hamburg and Berlin early enough so for several turns they were stunted by unnecessary happy caps.

Thoughts/hopes for the third round. What I'm hoping for is a period of minor expansion and research, trade some techs, certainly want metalcasting (for 25%production and +2happy per forge) and construction. Literature for Glib and Epics. Marble would be nice as well. I certainly want a Prophet for shrine, maybe another for theology coz its difficult to trade for. Build some axes and some cats after construction. There's a barb city to the north west and a site to south east that's currently available.

Third Round 875bc-125ad.

Spoiler :

In terms of my hopes for third round. Well they were partly met. I built one more city south east for marble/corn/cows; marble is in KK's borders so don't have that yet. Even though I got alphabet early no-one wanted to trade. Napoleon beat me to the north west barb city. Barbarians from the icecap continued to be a problem, didn't lose any units but they managed to pillage a silver mine so lost some worker turns fixing that. Naff move was building a road from the copper mine to my main cities and forgetting to build the mine. Got a prophet for the shrine; one turn away from another prophet, no-one's got theology yet so might get a religion to go with theocracy. Managed to build Glib without marble. Teching well despite trade deficit. My hopes of a peaceful round were shattered by Izzy declaring on me. Usual AI phony war, got one of Izzy's cities in a nice location (gems!) on the last turn. Got some axes and cats built. Overall not too bad; one advantage of AI declaring on you is that you don't get diplomatic penalties for thrashing them.
In terms of research got alphabet 775bc, metalcraft 500bc, ironwork 425bc, literature 350bc, maths 250bc, masonry 225bc, construction 50bc, sailing 25bc (my only trade, with KK for maths), monotheism 1ad, currently researching machinery.
Berlin (Wonder City) built a forge and a monastery in addition to several units and the Great Library. Hamburg (Shrinegold) built a temple to run a priest specialist to hurry the next Prophet as well as a forge and various units. Munich (eventual home to Heroic Epic) built granary, barracks, forge and various units. Overall I now have 4 workers, 7 archers, 7 axes (1 got killed by Izy) and 5 cats (3 more building).
Main events of the round: KK converted to confu in 825bc, Napoleon demanded silver 775bc (refused), Izy demanded writing 575bc (refused), I built Kong Miao 525bc, Napoleon converted to confu 450bc, I founded Cologne 450bc, Pyramids BIDL 300bc, Isabella declared war on me 175bc, I converted to confu in 150bc, Izzy built Mahabodi in Madrid 50bc, I built Great Lib in Berlin 50ad, I captured Cordoba (tasty gem city) 125ad. I'm not sure when Nap got barb city, probably around 500bc. I've also had an archer exploring the north, its a big continent.
Thoughts for next round. Continue war against Izzy, maybe try to eliminate her. Build national Epic in Berlin, HE in Munich if I get a level 4 unit(should do), few missionaries. Not planning on any more wonders. Tech towards optics then probably towards liberalism. KK will be next targetafter Izzy, should have maces available (and theocracy). And of course await surprises and setbacks.

 

[cabert]

Vudu: you appear to have posted the wrong save.

I'm still not sure of the selection process.

But here's a strong contender for the trash game:

no writeup?

 

[VuDu]

Vudu: you appear to have posted the wrong save.

Correct game this time, but one extra turn. Sorry, my noob status is glaringly obvious.

 

[William III]

Am I the last one to submit? Here is my report. Tomorrow I'll go away for a week, and I'll be back Friday 18th of August. I hope I'll be back in time for the second round.

Spoiler :

I started worker>Warriorand I intended to do a settler then, but when I saw it took only 3 more turns for Berlin to grow to size 3, I built another warrior, then a settler. My scout popped a scout and 2 maps, my second scout popped another scout and a map, and my third scout popped a map and two gold huts, for a total of 89 gold. I researched Agriculture(farming the corn)>BW>IW(I saw the nearest source of copper was on tundra, and I didn't want to settle there)>AH(Horses) and now researching the Wheel. I found Kublai to the North-East-East, Napoleon to the North and Isabella North-North-East. I have explored almost the entire continent. When I discovered IW, I spotted an ideal city site, halfway between me and Kublai, so I sent my 2nd warrior there to gain some experience from animals. My warrior wandered near Karakorum, and guess what I saw: Kublai's only worker was farming a tile that could not be reached in one turn from his capital. he had only one Archer and 2 warriors. So I declared war and grabbed his worker. I'll settle near the Iron(and near Kublai), but there is another source to Kublai's North. I hope he wants to make peace quickly, or else I'll have to make some Swords in my 2nd city(not founded yet, but that will come), to withstand his assaults. Should I have left his Worker alone? I don't think so. It will slow his development down a great deal, which is handy, for he is close, and if he is eliminated early, that gives us some extra power against Napoleon and Isabella. I hope this wasn't the worst game. And I made the same mistake as our Witch-Queen: I played to 2360 BC. Sorry.

 

[pigswill]

I'm afraid that I'd have to say that 40 rounds is enough time to detect trends and playstyles but not enough to sort the wheat from the chaff.
I'm tempted to go for something closer to Paul666's original version:-
4000-1500bc
1500-500bc
500bc-500ad
500ad-1200ad
1200ad-1500ad
1500-1750ad
1750ad-1850ad
Fifty year intervals after 1850ad.

Given that most everyone's posted first round and William III is away for a week this might need some further consideration but I'll solicit views anyway.

 

[cabert]

I'm afraid that I'd have to say that 40 rounds is enough time to detect trends and playstyles but not enough to sort the wheat from the chaff.
I'm tempted to go for something closer to Pete666's original version:-
4000-1500bc
1500-500bc
500bc-500ad
500ad-1200ad
1200ad-1500ad
1500-1750ad
1750ad-1850ad
Fifty year intervals after 1850ad.

Given that most everyone's posted first round and William III is away for a week this might need some further consideration but I'll solicit views anyway.

the first round is "over", so let's keep it. We'll discuss this issue after round 2, if you don't mind?
40 turns is something like 4 techs and 2 settlers, in the beginning. That's enough for me, but from what i read, there may be less diference than i expected between games. Maybe 50, 60 or even 100 turns are better in the beginning

 

[pigswill]

Sounds fine to me. So we'll select 'worst game' over weekend. 'Experts' play next round (?1600bc, ?1500bc); then select best game after that. Meanwhile we can discuss and hopefully agree on length of remaining turnsets over the next week or so. I guess this is a new format so there's always likely to be a bit of experimentation to start with.

 

[cabert]

Sounds fine to me. So we'll select 'worst game' over weekend. 'Experts' play next round (?1600bc, ?1500bc); then select best game after that. Meanwhile we can discuss and hopefully agree on length of remaining turnsets over the next week or so. I guess this is a new format so there's always likely to be a bit of experimentation to start with.

right, except that everyone gets to play the next round

 

[mice]

So how many turns is the next round?
and
Do we wait for Cam_H's save of round 1 ??

 

[Cam_H]

40 turns in the next round.

I will be heading home today, and 'should' be able to get a save up within eight hours. Please however don't wait for me, and please start dissecting and analysing the saves of the 'Noble-Prince' players.

Some issues that I thought could be considered included;

On the spot or one tile east?

You still get all of the special resources but you get to keep a forest for a later chop by the shuffle over, but o.t.o.h. you'll lose the food resource before the first border pop. So, do you use your scout to explore the potential sites, or grab that hut, or just head north? Computer says "Settle on the spot" - can we trust it?

Technology

To me, Agriculture (Corn and general farming to support mines) and Bronze Working (chops, Slavery, identify resource for genisis of an Axe-rush) would be the two most attractive technologies to pick up. The third technology for me is less clear, but my gut feel is Archery - I would be surprised if we find Copper in Berlin's fat cross (we can always hope!) given the high number of resources and trees there already, and I would like a unit stronger than a Warrior to chaperone our Settlers and I worry that Iron Working is too far off. With that said, with a Gold and two Silvers, it might not be such of a big deal.

 

[cabert]

So how many turns is the next round?
and
Do we wait for Cam_H's save of round 1 ??

40!
next pair of rounds may be bigger, though
And yes, we will wait for cam_h, not necessarily for his save, but he'll be the one saying "round 1 over" when time is right.
I played a round, in a few hours last night to get the flavour of the game. I did not intend to post it, nor to play it really well, just to see how many huts/neighbours/barbs/... there were and see how you could stand at 2400.
So i saw how fast you could tech and am ready to open all the saves.
I already opened 2 : Pigswill's and Pettrucci's, both bad candidates for a trash game.

Spoiler :

They both did a good deal of exploration (pettrucci having found 3 neighbours!), both have worked hard towards a settler, Pigswill already has a second city, but not in the most interesting location (no new ressources ), they both teched in different but not directions, pigswill going for the oracle (good idea for an industrious leader) while pettrucci went AH (for horses, i assume) before going oracle.
Just one thing pigswill : we're not philosophical, so no early GE for us (if you were thinking pyramids ).
Just one thing, pettrucci : no pottery = no granaries and no cottages.

I couldn't open the other saves. Anything special about them or is it my computer?

 

[Cam_H]

Well, I've loaded up and played my turn.

I look forward now to taking a look at the others.

Spoiler :

Decided to move the Scout to take the hut, and got a second Scout! He checked out the west, and after 20 seconds of 'internal debate' I decided to found on the spot.

In addition to Mining and Hunting (starting tech's ) I picked up Agriculture (corn), Bronze Working (Slavery - as suspected, no close Copper!), Archery (fear of Barbarians), Mysticism (Stonehenge is now an option), the Wheel (cottages and hook up resources), and I have Pottery in two turns with good overflow.

Growing the city to make the most of the Gold Mine once built I felt was important, and should keep us in touch with the A.I. tech-wise.

I've met two warmongers, Napoleon and Kublai Kahn.

I have 2x Warriors (one in Berlin, one in a sweet-spot for city #2), 1x Worker (Gold mine, Corn farmed, begun Silver mine), and 1x 'Medic Scout'. I've only hit one other hut, and it propelled one Scout to 7XPs. The other R.I.P.

Settler on the way with some towards an Archer.

(Image removed - server space)

 

[pigswill]

Cabert: must be your computer.

Had a look at the saves. Its a tough call coz not only do you have to work out how far people have got (fairly easy: map and techtree and demographics) but you also have to make an educated guess on future potential. One thing that is clear is that already people are showing different styles and strategies.

Spoiler :

Cabert (and anyone else who may be interested); my priority at this point is not additional resources (tho did pick up elephants) but rather to pick a productive site for oracle (assuming I get CoL for Confucianism that'll be shrine location which will eventually become money city). I'm not intending to build pyramids

 

[Petrucci]

Not sure if this should be in spoilers or not so beware when you read this, it contains ideas for why i went in certain directions. Lemme know if this is correct format .

Spoiler :

I never got that settler out an about, while it seems most everone else had.Yes, excellent point between my choice in techs, for me it was between pottery and horses , i would have went with pottery as a bit of growth and commerce, but all those luxury resources figured it could hold off a bit.

I was planning on going for chariots over axemen, this could change after i rethink some things, but as of the submission time i was going for the nice coast/ horse city.

Also i'm at work , so i'll give a less hurried response when i get home!

 

[Cam_H]

OK, an unusually scientific approach from moi ...

Spoiler :

I agree with ^ comments that there's no stand-out game here, and I can see some of the logic behind all of the submissions.

(Image removed - server space)

So ... my fair ... we may just be playing your game after all! I must admit that I like the Settler on hand, but constraining Berlin's growth is a problem for me ... let alone the hungry Bears up north! Don't be despondent however, the approach is generally a good one, but for 'my money' there's too many good tiles to go with the Worker > Worker > Settler formula in this instance.

I liked all of the games, but in particular William's and pigswill's games - although I should note that while pigswill is 'top of the pops' ... he's the only one still in Tribalism

 

[Petrucci]

Wow, very good approach Cam, I do belive you have just set a standard.

Spoiler :

I'm very impressed by pigswill's and cam's research!

I would cast the ballot of "trashgame" this round to Vudu's or my own. Really hard to call any submission trash as it looks like we are all in a good position to win this game. This is based on city progression and tech rate.

As Germany's expansion, city growth, and tech rate seems to be the foundation on what good games use in the early years. I found both Vudu and myself pretty well tied and thus guarding the rear of the pack in these areas. Just my 2 cents here, curious to hear what everyone else thinks!

 

[pigswill]

Having thought about it I'd probably reckon Vudu's is the weakest game to date; on the other hand there's a lot of improved tiles so once you go for growth it'll catch up quick. The main concern is miltry stuff because barbs aren't very far away; again fixable but it can be a bit embarassing to lose improvements coz you can't defend them.
William III looks to be going military early which is fair enough but runs the risk of falling behind a bit later on.
My game is of course the best so far (he said modestly) but there's still plenty of time to screw up. Haven't gone for slavery yet coz don't need it for chopping and its too early for whipping.