P666-04 : Yet Another Trash Game

[Endzz]

My vote is away now! (the missing one propably )
Looking forward to next round, should be interesting.

ps. was there only 5 saves or did I really miss some?

 

[cabert]

My vote is away now! (the missing one propably )
Looking forward to next round, should be interesting.

ps. was there only 5 saves or did I really miss some?

there were 6 including yours
- futurehermit
- pigswill
- fbelintani
- endzz
- ojevind lang
- cabert

vra didn't post his save.

 

[Cam_H]

• Mice's was incomplete.

• The Chiller's disappeared.

• I didn't play because of immunity, and somewhat distracted by another succession game.

Congratulations to Fbelintani for submitting the selected game as the most successful for this round! I am waiting to see this 'fall in a heap' thing that I've heard so much about and seen little evidence of so far!

We will play this game to 1400AD, where we will vote on the least successful.

Öjevind Lång is immune for this round (and may play or not play as he wishes) and will collect the votes and in case of a tie will have the casting vote. Fbelintani is immune for the round after this next one.

Usual deal; games posted at latest by early-Saturday morning 'American time'. If you are unable to play, please let us know.

Mice is on a skip until he returns from his international sojourn.

 

[futurehermit]

Congrats Fbelintani, that was some masterful play imo. I was very shocked to see Toku pretty much gone when I opened your save!

 

[cabert]

Fbelintani!
I'll play late in the week, but i'll play (no immunity anymore)

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Congratulations indeed to fbelintani for a very impressive game! I played onwards to 1400 too, just for fun. My attempt is below.

Spoiler :

Some notes may be in order.
1010 refused to give Kublai Khan Machinery. He reacted by cancelling our Open Borders agreement and trade agreement.
1020 Fall of Satsuma. End of Tokugawa.
1040 discovered Civil Service, introduced Bureaucracy
1050 Kublai Khan demanded wine in tribute; since I had lots of wine and did not want to go to war with him at the moment (having my sights on Qin), I acceded to his request. This made Asoka Cautious instead of Pleased, but that couldn't be helped. I also began to build Heroic Epic in Pyongyang.
1060 Kublai Khan declared war against Asoka instead of against me.
1080 Great Library built in a distant land. I had gone for it in Seoul, but this way I got some money instead which I used to update units to macemen.
1090 Traded Metal Casting to Asoka for Feudalism.
1200 declared war on Qin.
1210 built the Colossus in Seoul.
1240 a Great general was born in Seoul. I established him as a military expert in Pyongyang since I don't think Great Generals in the field are much good - they just get killed.
1260 took Nanjing.
1270 Great Engineer born in Seoul. Built the Parthenon there for more GP.
I tried to be the first to research Music because of a pro-Chinese revolt in Osaka; a Great Artist would have been nice. I wasn't the first to discover the technology, though.
1360: Captured Tianjin.
1400. Got Compass from Asoka for Music and 20 gold.
Before capturing Tianjin, I captured and razed Tientsin. With the Heroic Epic and a military expert in Pyongyang, I can churn out good troops at a fast pace. Shanghai should fall soon. The question would then be whether to make peace with Qin in exchange for technologies or take him out before Kublai Khan attacks, which he will. I'd prefer the latter; my reputation would take less of a beating.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/61698/_jevindP666-04_AD-1400.CivWarlordsSave

 

[FeedBack]

WOW!
This is amazing! I joined the game hoping not to be the trash one every time! I'm really shocked!!!!!
I may not be able to play, as I'm off to the beach tomorrow night. So, my only hope is that my wife let me play while she watches Grey's Anatomy tonight!

Thanks, everyone!

 

[futurehermit]

WOW!
This is amazing! I joined the game hoping not to be the trash one every time! I'm really shocked!!!!!
I may not be able to play, as I'm off to the beach tomorrow night. So, my only hope is that my wife let me play while she watches Grey's Anatomy tonight!

Thanks, everyone!

Your play was great. You had by far the most cities conquered/razed out of all of us. I couldn't believe it really...

 

[cabert]

What I had in mind in the beginning of the game was that from this point on, building was military all over the place, chopped and pop rushed.
With a little dedication we should be able to get rid of at least 1 neighbour in every turnset.
Of course the "trash game" selected each time may not follow this line...
But we are ready to go (feudalism is tradable already if I'm not mistaken)

 

[FeedBack]

Time for another reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllyyyyyyyyy long post!!!!

Spoiler :

Well, let's finish what we started... At turn 1020 AD:
Japanese Empire has been eliminated
1030 AD, some action happened...
Civics Change: P666-04(Korea) from 'Barbarism' to 'Bureaucracy'
Genghis Khan(Mongolia) declares war on Asoka(India)

I traded Feudalism from Machinery as I saw I had no monopoly anymore. Btw, I think Genghis is actually Mansa Musa on this game... What a research powerhouse!

Genghis and Qin asked to dogpile Asoka. I declined both. Actually, I wanted to backstab Qin as soon as I could. He had some nasty Longbows shining on his defenses. Seoul is pumping units fast. But when I saw this, everything changed:
Kublai Khan(Mongolia) declares war on Asoka(India)

Asoka was our only "friend" and was very backwards. The other one cautious with us is Kublai, the score leader. So, I made this decision:
P666-04(Korea) declares war on Asoka(India)
It was a phony war, actually. I never sent even one unit to Asoka's lands. It was just for the struggle bonus. And it paid off right away:
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards P666-04(Korea), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

I thought I'd need another unit for taking Qin. That maybe was my worst move this turnset:
Tech learned: Guilds
The workshops I made were starting to get attractive, but the Knights wouldn't do any good agains Jumbos. And I got Ivory. Well, what is done, is done. So, I went to the Liberalism route:
Research begun: Paper (4 Turns)

Asoka was sending a trirreme down to Kagoshima and its only source of food, so I made just a cease fire with Asoka. Well:
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards P666-04(Korea), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Now I had no idea what to research... Education or Gunpowder? Well, Genghis had Philosophy. Mao had Philosophy. Nobody had Paper, so I would trade for it soon. I went to Education, then.

Have you guys seen how many food and grown cottages are near Kyoto? So, the good news:
Kyoto finishes: The Great Library
Bad news:
Asoka(India) and Genghis Khan(Mongolia) have signed a peace treaty
Qin Shi Huang(China) and Asoka(India) have signed a peace treaty

Oh, man. My window of opportunity ended... I became too much buildering and Thought my forces weren't ready. I almost had only Hwachas, Maces and some remaining axes. The few knights for pillaging were almost the same as a chariot, so they don't count.

Man, how they do it? 3 AIs have Engineering? Well, we could use the treb. I traded with Kublai (the only one willing to) for Civil Service (as it wasn't a monopoly anymore).

I thought about a city to work the Iron and the 3 furs southeast of Seoul. When I get there, a barb city appears. Let's raze it!

I changed research in the middle. Education was taking too long. I hoped for a GS to come soon from the GL. I directed the scientists to Gunpowder now. I must have done this before, too.

Take a look at this:
Asoka(India) and Kublai Khan(Mongolia) have signed a peace treaty
Asoka becomes a Vassal State of Kublai Khan
Interesting...
Isambard Kingdom Brunel (Engineer) (Great Engineer) born in Seoul
Seoul finishes: The Hagia Sophia
If not, only for more GE points. I like them finishing wonders for me.

After a lot of unit building (helped by some far forest chops), at 1370 AD...
Tech learned: Gunpowder
P666-04(Korea) declares war on Qin Shi Huang(China)

Time to DIE!
I had about 3 SoD's. Two to avoid close contact from that three cities Win has near Seoul and P'yongyang and one real SoD to take the north cities. That one is impressive. About 10 hwachas, 2 trebs, 6 maces, 2 pikes and some pillaging-healing mounted units.
Another smoke move: I forgot to move some troops on the first turn of war. I got too excited to see the assault at Chengdu and it costed us a worker. Sorry. The strange thing is that the plot where the mace took the worker didn't have a worker next turn. Do you guys know if the AI can move recently captured workers?

Barb side note: never let a barb city spot alone when you just take it. When I got the settler to settle the city, another barb city spawned. This time protected by TWO longbows. My Jumbo got one, but is injured.

Captured Kunming (Qin Shi Huang) (fishing city NE of Kyoto)
Captured Tianjin (Qin Shi Huang) (fishing city near seoul)
Captured Chengdu (Qin Shi Huang) (core city near Shangai)

Muskets are starting to arrive. The strike at Shangai should have some of these. Actually, on the last turn I checked the trade screen.. WTH?! Genghis ALREADY HAS GUNPOWDER!
So, I took a desperate move: shopped gunpowder everywhere. I got:
Tech learned: Philosophy
Tech learned: Compass
Some world maps and a bunch of good gold. I could have gotten Drama also, but this tech is too cheap to add to the WFYABTA limit. After reading so much about it, I think I'll never research Alpha myself again. I'll trade less techs from now on.

And that's it. IIRC, we are second in score, just behind Kublai.

Guys, I'm off to the beach tonight (GMT -2). I'll come back Sunday afternoon. I'll try to vote in time!

And the save:

 

[Cam_H]

I see youve lost a few guys. If you need another, I wouldnt mind jumping in. Ive played all the saves you guys have.

Cabledawg,

Sure thing! Given Mice has been whisked away for a month or so, please sub in for him! Welcome aboard!

What level are you normally playing?

Is anyone learning anything from this exercise - it just seems that we're playing but not talking?

 

[Cabledawg]

Thx for having me. I normally play Monarch for a challenge and Prince if I just want to win...lol.

I played all the previous saves and something I noticed. In the previous 2 saves, I popped Great Engineers. The first save I built the Pyramids and the second...the Parth. I wonder if the Great Person RNG is specific to each players computer and not the save.

Ill play fbelintani save (great job BTW) and see if I pop another Engineer. Im not sure what we are supposed to talk about in the pre-spoiler threads. Can we talk about our general strategy we will pursue in our game before playing?

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Is anyone learning anything from this exercise - it just seems that we're playing but not talking?

I have learned a lot. I am a committed Builder and unlikely to change, but I have picked up some very useful hints and techniques since I joined the game. Furthermore, it is fun to participate.

 

[cabert]

Thx for having me. I normally play Monarch for a challenge and Prince if I just want to win...lol.

I played all the previous saves and something I noticed. In the previous 2 saves, I popped Great Engineers. The first save I built the Pyramids and the second...the Parth. I wonder if the Great Person RNG is specific to each players computer and not the save.

Ill play fbelintani save (great job BTW) and see if I pop another Engineer. Im not sure what we are supposed to talk about in the pre-spoiler threads. Can we talk about our general strategy we will pursue in our game before playing?

strategic thinking is welcome, only spoilers aren't (at least not without the spoiler tag)
About RNG, the seed is saved (in the save obviously), but random numbers are generated a lot between turns and for each action, so it just takes a different trade, a different build, to change the outcome.

About strat, I've been quite verbose in the beginning, and now it seems so obvious that I didn't say much.
My strat from now on until the end :
- build units
- attack
- raze all wonderless unholy cities
- vassalize* as soon as possible

* : requires feudalism, but it should be tradable very soon.

Is anyone learning anything from this exercise - it just seems that we're playing but not talking?

Well, I learned that focusing a bit more and explaining my strat better could help me to avoid the "trash award"

 

[pigswill]

I've been playing my usual strategy of focussing on economy rather than conquest. Its safe, it works for me but doesn't help me win faster.

I totally misjudged cabert's initial set which taught me a couple of things: wonders are useful in context (because I've moved away from wonder building) and its very difficult to be objective about other people's games: I tend to judge a set on the basis of my preferred playing style.

 

[cabert]

I've been playing my usual strategy of focussing on economy rather than conquest. Its safe, it works for me but doesn't help me win faster.

I totally misjudged cabert's initial set which taught me a couple of things: wonders are useful in context (because I've moved away from wonder building) and its very difficult to be objective about other people's games: I tend to judge a set on the basis of my preferred playing style.

my initial set WAS weak, it's not just an illusion
but I had a very precise strat in mind, that i should have explained more.
I must say i was kind of happy to be allowed to play it through...maybe I didn't explain it more so it gets selected

 

[vra379971]

Will explain it later.

 

[futurehermit]

I think we need more discussion. It will help everyone learn more of what each other is doing and will help make judging easier (since you can base it on what people are actually trying to do). It will also help the game to progress more smoothly imo. It's nice to see different play styles, and I would encourage that, but we're still playing a succession game not 6-7 different games so it would be good if we could have more discussion

I'll start

This past save gives us the elimination of Toku. One down! Our diplomatic situation is tricky and I think we need to cultivate relations with 1-2 civs. Asoka for sure imo and we go against the Buddhist heathens. I think we should attack Qin next because he's all over our borders. I would've started with him instead of Toku because Toku was further away (higher maintenance, etc.), but what's done is done. Thoughts?

 

[cabert]

I think we need more discussion. It will help everyone learn more of what each other is doing and will help make judging easier (since you can base it on what people are actually trying to do). It will also help the game to progress more smoothly imo. It's nice to see different play styles, and I would encourage that, but we're still playing a succession game not 6-7 different games so it would be good if we could have more discussion

I totally agree

I'll start

This past save gives us the elimination of Toku. One down! Our diplomatic situation is tricky and I think we need to cultivate relations with 1-2 civs. Asoka for sure imo and we go against the Buddhist heathens. I think we should attack Qin next because he's all over our borders. I would've started with him instead of Toku because Toku was further away (higher maintenance, etc.), but what's done is done. Thoughts?

In the previous round, I went the exact opposite way, choosing buddhism as state religion to have overall good relations, and attacked Asoka (Qin even dogpiled on him). I think diplomacy is really bad now(it was in almost all saves, sorry to say so guys).
What can we do to "fix the trash" (the conquest part was very good, fbelintani, but diplomacy not so)?
I need to open the save and look better, but IMHO the only thing that can help in the near future is to keep the world at war.
Not only us, but everybody should be at war.
This certainly requires some bribery...
It's the right moment to think about triangle diplomacy.
And I totally disagree about Asoka. Why keep him happy? He has no friend, he is a perfect target.

 

[pigswill]

I also chose to target Tok (tho I was slightly more careful with my diplomacy ) because I really don't like being sandwiched between aggressive AIs. Taking out Tok clears a flank so you only really have to worry about attacks from one direction.

Having said that there's a diplomatic and financial situation to be improved. I agree with cabert that Asoka is the next target from a foreign relations viewpoint. It could be worth looking at joining in a dogpile against him to get the 'mutual military' bonuss to counter the 'declare war on my friend' when we pick on Qin next.