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Paradigm Shift

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by ParadigmShifter, Mar 4, 2008.

  1. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    21,810
    Location:
    Liverpool, home of Everton FC
    Dominatrix Cathy

    Rounds:
    Round 1 (to 3040BC) part 1: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6569122&postcount=35
    Round 1 (to 3040BC) part 2: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6569185&postcount=37

    Round 2 (to 1120BC) part 1: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6576436&postcount=71
    Round 2 (to 1120BC) part 2: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6576541&postcount=72
    Round 2 (to 1120BC) part 3: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6576615&postcount=73
    Round 2 (to 1120BC) part 4: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6576696&postcount=76

    Round 3 (to 625BC) part 1: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6580416&postcount=91
    Round 3 (to 625BC) part 2: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6580455&postcount=92
    Round 3 (to 625BC) part 3: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6580487&postcount=93
    Round 3 (to 625BC) part 4: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6580556&postcount=94

    Round 4 (to 640AD) part 1: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6599678&postcount=112
    Round 4 (to 640AD) part 2: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6599736&postcount=113
    Round 4 (to 640AD) part 3: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6599782&postcount=114
    Round 4 (to 640AD) part 4: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6599782&postcount=114
    Round 4 (to 640AD) part 5: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6599891&postcount=116

    Round 5 (to 940AD) part 1: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6614800&postcount=135
    Round 5 (to 940AD) part 2: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6614881&postcount=136
    Round 5 (to 940AD) part 3: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6615030&postcount=137

    Round 6 (to 1040AD) part 1: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6633531&postcount=143
    Round 6 (to 1040AD) part 2: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6633534&postcount=144

    Round 7 (to 1120AD) part 1: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6635137&postcount=151
    Round 7 (to 1120AD) part 2: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6635160&postcount=152
    Round 7 (to 1120AD) part 3: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6635188&postcount=153

    Round 8 (to 1250AD) part 1: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6649488&postcount=174
    Round 8 (to 1250AD) part 2: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6649530&postcount=175
    Round 8 (to 1250AD) part 3: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6649574&postcount=176

    Round 9 (to 1390AD) part 1: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6653792&postcount=192
    Round 9 (to 1390AD) part 2: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6653816&postcount=193
    Round 9 (to 1390AD) part 3: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6653836&postcount=194
    Round 9 (to 1390AD) part 4: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6653857&postcount=195

    Round 10 (to 1530AD) part 1: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6654617&postcount=199
    Round 10 (to 1530AD) part 2: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6654723&postcount=201
    Round 10 (to 1530AD) part 3: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6654827&postcount=202
    Round 10 (to 1530AD) part 4: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6654908&postcount=204

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    OK, I'm thinking of doing a walkthrough series for you to enjoy (or not, as the case may be).

    There have been lots of walkthroughs to date, and there seems to be a lot of them recently (welcome back, aelf!, Sisiutil, you the man, madscientist, you crazy!, BurN, you funny!).

    I have seen alot of people struggling to win on the lower "more advanced" levels though. Orion's homeschool (I'll edit and put links in later) caters for players wanting to see tips and strategies on how to win noble level. Sisiutil started on Prince but that was vanilla and then he moved up the levels as he got better at the game and received more tips. Madscientist does his great variant RPC challenges on Monarch which are a lot of fun, plus he . .. .. .. .. . things up once in a while (maybe twice, or thrice, if he is the God of War!). Aelf and BurN showcase high-level play, at Immortal level (scary for me). And I mustn't forget UnconqueredSun and his "Justinian's University" thread where he showed us how to REX at deity level (even scarier, yikes).

    So I'm thinking, start a challenge series for people struggling with the jump from noble to prince level. Now for me, I could beat vanilla noble after a few games and coming to this forum (basically: build more catapults). I didn't have to worry about relations with the other AI, tech speed, or stuff like that. I could just flick the Vs at the AI and not care about consequences. When I got warlords expansion I beat noble at my first attempt, was still unsure about some of the new game mechanics though.

    When I moved up to prince level, it was a whole new ball game. I lost at least 6 games or jacked them in when things looked useless (Washington, I remember your backstab!). Eventually I got a win, space victory with Alexander. For some reason, I tried to crack monarch straight after that, it took me a while. But I'm fairly comfortable with monarch now.

    So I got my first Emperor level win about 3 weeks ago on warlords (with praetorians, borderline cheating), and made the plunge into BtS. I had 2 games on monarch, won them both (cultural, then my first BtS space race playing Bindamel's challenge #2 - see the HOF forum for details). Next game I moved to Emperor and after a failed early rush as Pericles (random leader), I had Pericles again in the next game (stupid random number generator). And I won a diplo win.

    Next BtS game was the current GMinor36, a conquest game on continents. I won a fairly late 1806AD game but had some fun with Portugese carracks. This was at prince level - as per the gauntlet requirements.

    So I'm thinking I can handle prince level games at BtS despite it being new to me, and I can probably pick a victory condition and just go for it from the off.

    So - after a long and rambling introduction, I present, the Paradigm Shift challenge!

    Can I win all 6 victory conditions (I don't count time as a victory condition) in Beyond the Sword at a rather modest Prince difficulty level, with the same leader, while showcasing strategies that help make the jump from noble to prince?

    The 6 victory conditions are:

    Conquest
    Culture
    Diplo - UN
    Diplo - Religious
    Domination
    Space Race

    Now, I want to pick a flexible leader that doesn't have traits that you might start to rely on. So I ruled out financial, industrious and philosophical. Those are great traits, but they tend to make you play in one particular way. Which isn't great for this kind of challenge, and if I am going to show people how to move up from noble to prince I don't want people relying on getting wonders, lots of great people, or just loads of research and money. I also don't want to rely on cheesy strategies that are high risk/high reward so I ruled out any civs with an early powerful unique unit.

    In the end, it was a toss up between Napoleon of France and Catherine of Russia. Napoleon lost due to his charismatic trait giving an extra happiness which basically means playing prince games with noble happiness levels, plus a load of more highly promoted units. It is also too tempting to go for stonehenge in every game to get even more happiness. I don't want to rely on wonders too much, I tended to do that when playing at noble. I want to limit myself to 1 key wonder (perhaps 2, if conditions are favourable) per era, because that can be a crutch at noble level. Hats off to obsolete for his wonder/super specialist economy, that requires alot more diplomatic skill than I can muster though.

    So Catherine it is then. Can I pick a victory condition and win, with a blind map, at prince level?

    Rules:

    1) I choose the victory condition and then generate the map. I can select the map type, one I think is suitable for the victory condition. I'm not going to play pangaea maps because I think they are a bit lame. All other maps are fair game. I prefer continent style maps ;) Terra doesn't count because it is pangaea until astronomy, it's an OK map type though (especially for conquest).
    2) No more than 2 world wonders per era. I hope to build them all in all of the games though.

    First up: domination. My bread and butter victory condition.

    Start to follow. Continents map, standard size, all games will be normal speed.

    EDIT: Oooh, cox is a dirty word on this forum. I'll have to remember that. It wasn't the F-word folks, don't panic.
     
  2. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    OK, here's the start.

    Catherine, she's a bit of an old slapper, but we like her, when she is on our side



    The start
     
  3. goldenhero

    goldenhero Warlord

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    This will be interesting! I'm just starting Noble now, so I think it will be nice to know how things work on the next level =D For the start, I think you should move the scout 1S, and if nothing useful is out there, settle in place. you have plenty of trees, and you're on a river with cows and 2 wine. Just my input =D
     
  4. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    OK, couldn't find the link to Orion's threads, here is a link to the walkthrough directory though

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=258697

    And I just got my second infraction for trolling! Yay! (Not really, I'm really, really, really, disappointed in myself).

    So, a few words about the leader/start.

    Catherine. She's a formiddable opponent, so playing her is good, yeah?

    Traits:

    Expansive. I dismissed charismatic earlier on for being +1 happiness at noble (Napoleon), but expansive is +2 health so it is like noble - 1 level. Health isn't as urgent to deal with as happiness, but by early midgame, you can run hereditary rule to make the happiness problem go away. So maybe I have picked a leader with a large crutch here ;) Anyway, I want monarchy to improve the grapes in the BFC. Also, +25% worker production from hammers (nerfed from 50% in warlords). I'll be building workers anyway, every little bit helps.

    Creative: I like this trait, saves hammers on monuments. I can REX at will but will have to watch maintenance. I'd rather conquer cities to get land though, this is the domination game. Double prodction speed of library (very nice), theatre (good) and colosseum (a bit "meh").

    Unique Unit: Cossack - cavalry that gets a bonus against mounted. Cavalry are really good but have been pushed back to their same tech as their counter (rifles) in BtS. If I can get a tech lead they can definitely waste cuirassiers and knights, big time.

    Unique building: Research Institute (replaces laboratory) - this has been pushed back in BtS too. It really is fantastic, a Great Library in every city. I think the game wil be won or lost by this time though.
     
  5. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    Russia starting techs:

    Hunting: Bit rubbish, unless we see elephants. I wanted to see some beaver but Catherine said no and slapped me about a bit. We start with a scout because of this though, so can probably grab some goody huts and do a good bit of exploring. I expect a fair amount of cash and maybe a tech if we are lucky. A map or two if we are unlucky. We will probably get cash from the hut if we settle in place, we can't get a tech without a city placed.

    Mining: Probably the best tech to start with. Bronze working looks like a good move as first tech, with all these trees.
     
  6. SnowlyWhite

    SnowlyWhite Emperor

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    she's imperialistic all the way :p
     
  7. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    Whoops, drunk again ;)

    Cathy is Imperialistic, not expansive.

    So - scrub the health bonus (which as I said was a big crutch anyway!)

    She gets +100% great general emergence (great for a domination game), and +50% hammer production on settlers (meh, I'd rather conquer cities, handy for the first couple of settlers though).
     
  8. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    Here's the save anyway.

    I play with the HOF mod, not Bhruic's patch, you can get it from the HOF forum. I turned off lock modified assets so people can peek in world builder if they like, but, NO SPOILERS! (Or at least use the spoiler tag). If you put spoilers in your post, I can't quote them (you see the spoilers then, duh!), so will have to use the old select text and paste thing to reply, which I probably won't do (I'm lazy).
     
  9. URSExelcior

    URSExelcior Warlord

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    Good idea for a thread. Just remember to update once in a while :)


    Hunting is pretty useful here.

    1) You start with a scout for huts.

    2) You have a discount on AH if BW doesn't reveal copper.

    3) You can research archery right away if no copper/horses are around. Usually I would take archery first (better be safe than sorry), but barbs take a looooong time to appear on prince, so you have plenty of time.
     
  10. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    I'm not too worried about barbs on prince level. I need a worker, and bronze working to chop and build mines. I also need animal husbandry for the cow. I think I'm just going to settle in place, and move the scout to the hill to get a look around.

    Blue circle is for the scout BTW, not the settler.

    Early wonder - I'm thinking stonehenge, good for domination games. If I see stone I will consider the pyramids instead.
     
  11. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    Bad points:

    We don't start with agriculture. Farming is probably the most useful worker tech to have early game. Maybe we can pop it from a hut though. I still think AH and BW are more important at the mo', I'll see what the scout reveals from the hill however.
     
  12. Carabodes

    Carabodes Timid Viking Warlady

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    Great - New yummy thread, my morning coffee sessions will be even longer now :)

    You say you want to settle in place, but consider levees. You won't get them if you settle in place. By moving the settler 1E you'll loose one hill, but will get levees. And the hut will pop before settling anyway, so nothing lost by moving the settler onto it. Settling in place might be just fine, it may be just me, I love levees, and hate how the game always seem to wants you to settle one off the river banks, making you loose out the lovely river hammers in later game.

    Good luck with your game, I'll be lurking, hoping to learn even more.
     
  13. Deriem

    Deriem Chieftain

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    This is a great thread idea, Paradigm! I just started playing Prince, and I'm having a little bit of trouble coping with the new setting. Hopefully this game will help me reach my goal of getting to a somewhat respectable level (Prince sounds lame compared to Monarch:p). Are you taking the ALC route where there is a discussion about major decisions, or more like Orion where people asked questions about why he made his decisions.

    Also, if you're going to move the settler 1E, I'd use the scout to pop the hut first. Unless I'm being paranoid and Settlers can't trigger the hostiles on Turn 0. Although a Turn 1 loss date would be nothing short of remarkable...
     
  14. Lafer

    Lafer Chieftain

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    Cool, now I can up my game some more? Maybe I'm asking a stupid question, but will the things I pick up in this game help me in easier difficulties? Can I implement some of what I learn in my games on warchief and do better than I do now, or is it too much of a jump backwards? I hear about how ppl play at a certain difficulty, and when they try a lower one, they can't win.
     
  15. Deriem

    Deriem Chieftain

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    Personally I followed the Monarch ALCs to get from Warlord to Prince. Although I suppose it would depend on how you play, and whether you like reading a million and one pages of discussion. I found that it really gave me a good understanding of the base mechanics of the game and how to exploit them to beat the AI black and blue. Of course, some strategies only work on higher levels (like Quechuas on Monarch+, where the AI has archers off the bat). But for the most part, a solid gameplan on Monarch is (in my experience) a solid gameplan on the lower levels.
     
  16. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    @Carabodes: Good point, although there is a forest where the hut is, so I'll lose a turn. Decisions.

    I don't want to turn this into a Sisiutil style 7 pager on where to move scout, settler, so I'll probably move the scout 1SE and make a hasty decision that I'll regret later.

    I'll go easy on Ragnar just for you though (if he turns up) Carabodes.
     
  17. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    I'll just wing the deciions and if they are bad blame it on the drink ;) Feel free to offer me advice.

    No point popping the hut with the scout, settlers are the same as far as I know (fingers crossed). I know border pops don't give hostiles anyway and you can't get experience either, so better than a scout - but same as a worker!)
     
  18. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    levees are good but moving on normal speed for it is slightly overrated. If it's a slower game speed, I'd go for it but at normal, it's normally not worth the 1 turn delay. The levee advantage doesn't kick in until pretty late in the game and by then, you'll hopefully have alternative cities that will build the IW (on a river). Since you generally end up putting Oxford in the capital anyways (barring the bizarre map), I normally find it easier to just use the capital as a GP farm/science city and move the primary production somewhere else late game. Thus, levee isn't as critical (not much infra to build late game and you can always rush buy).

    You also have 2 grass hills + plains hill + cows in your starting position bfc to start with so that's more than enough production to last through the midgame. If you move, you may be sacrificing early game production for the late game levee.

    The Sid tip about scouts being the best to pop huts is wrong :lol: Workers and settlers all the way! Or city culture pop.
     
  19. Carabodes

    Carabodes Timid Viking Warlady

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    No nead to, he's a Dane, I'm a Norse(wo)man, and the danes had us in slavery for 400 years, so just kill him :D, even though nowadays we're "best of friends".
    Ragnar is not to be trusted anyways, he's even been known to attack at friendly. I'm constantly at war with the guy, only in my last game I managed to stay on his friendly side all through the game, might have been connected to the fact that my army was far superior, and that I killed off his worst enemy for him, and gifted him all that enemies cities (that were too far away from me to be able to keep, anyway).
     
  20. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    I'm not keen on moving really, it looks like a science city rather than a GP farm or a production powerhouse, the capital. I'll probably save the forests to get the classical wonder, Great Library.

    I was going to move scout to the hill but am now thinking 1SE might be better to see if moving 1E is worth it. Thre's no hurry to reach the hill on the first turn.

    EDIT: Carabodes, I was fibbing. Ragnar is a dead man if I see him ;)
     

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