Parthenon

[sylvanllewelyn]

EDIT:
One important point is that many are talking from Deity standpoint. I would say that on lower difficulties I could squeeze the Parthenon in much more often without huge opportunity costs.

What is the willingness of the AI to trade away aesthetics?

On deity, I self-research aesthetics because I can trade it away for alphabet. Below deity, I need to research alphabet manually because the AI does not get it quickly or reliably. Therefore, although researching aesthetics early (to build the Parthenon) below deity does not incur "huge opportunity cost", the main benefit is also not there.

Aesthetics itself only enables three world wonders. Below deity, if I wanted one of those wonders for whatever reason, I can take it by force and then demand aesthetics from the victim. If I cannot take it by force, that means the wonders are on another continent. With multiple continents, I focus on liberalism - - > astronomy, which leads to early scientific method.

 

[sampsa]

If you research Music before Civil Service and have no interest in neither Aesthetics nor Litterature, what do you do in the meantime ? How do you do it ?

I have interest in both aesth and lit, because they are pre-reqs to music.

I'm not sure if I really understand the question, because there isn't anything particularly different there with or without GLib. I keep setting up my empire for the upcoming golden age. That means growing to -cap or a bit past it. go either to HR-warriors, barracks or //failgold.

 

[ArchGhost]

I find the effect to be rather weak itself. Pacifism + growing for upcoming GA usually suffices, if PHI GLib +Library specialists alone can often produce 2-3 scientists of the ~3-4 needed for quick bulb up the Lib path without even needing Caste swap.

I do often try to build it, but it conflicts with GLib itself (pollutes GP pool) so it doesn't go in the GLib city, as well as being lower priority. I often find that I am delaying Polytheism until right when I am getting Lit, so when I make Aes > Alpha trades some nit will be already making a run on it by the time I even start.

Hard to feel the effect of it IMO. Maybe if only farming GS off of several early Libraries by starting early with quicker Writing.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@BornInCantaloup
The setup you mention sounds alot like what I find myself in, when I want to bulb philosophy, but don't have marble.
Then I usually go aestethics (tradebait, and sometimes failgold if gold/ivory).
Then I go drama instead of CoL to open up the path to philosophy.

While I'm there, I notice alot of AIs have techs like MC/Currency/CoL/Theology. Perhaps even compass.
There is really not that many techs that makes sense to go for, since it's likely that most of them will be available in trades soon enough anyway.
Then it makes perfect sense to go for music I think.
Something along those lines tend to land me in that situation at least.

Thank you, Krikav, for giving an example that ties it all together. I can see it working out.
It's a path that's filled with trade baits, and there's value to that, although it's also bitten me a few times. Being trade dependent is two-edged.
"Trade bait" and "bulb philosophy" are the real keywords, here. If you have ambitious bulb objectives or a poor capital, I can see Philo taking priority over Civil Service, even in a "beeline theory" kind of game.
Going straight into CoL -> Civil Service and ignoring entirely the Aesthetics line is also an alternative that allows to bulb Philo. Anyways. Different games play different.

 

[sampsa]

Had you actually read my posts in this thread, you'd know I'm assuming philo has been bulbed. Trade bait doesn't have that much to do with anything.

 

[sampsa]

To avoid any further misunderstandings, I'll explain what I'm talking about tech by tech. After early techs go writing, then CoL via myst-(medi)-poly-priesthood. Now we are ready to get monarchy from trade when available, which is often needed to grow asap. Then go aesth-lit-music, whether or not you have marble. With the only GS produced before the golden age, bulb philo. Need math via trade, which shouldn't be hard as both CoL and aesth are good trade bait. When the cities are ready for it (should be immediately after music), start the golden age with the music GA aiming to get generate 3 GS (plus one or even two GM if possible, but they are a bonus). Tech goes CS-paper, bulbs go 2*edu and lib.

If you have enough production (usually means forest) you can build GLib, NE, Parthenon if you want to, but none of that is strictly necessary, because the strength of this line is in the music artist and the golden age which follows it.

 

[Nick723]

To avoid any further misunderstandings, I'll explain what I'm talking about tech by tech. After early techs go writing, then CoL via myst-(medi)-poly-priesthood. Now we are ready to get monarchy from trade when available, which is often needed to grow asap. Then go aesth-lit-music, whether or not you have marble. With the only GS produced before the golden age, bulb philo. Need math via trade, which shouldn't be hard as both CoL and aesth are good trade bait. When the cities are ready for it (should be immediately after music), start the golden age with the music GA aiming to get generate 3 GS (plus one or even two GM if possible, but they are a bonus). Tech goes CS-paper, bulbs go 2*edu and lib.

If you have enough production (usually means forest) you can build GLib, NE, Parthenon if you want to, but none of that is strictly necessary, because the strength of this line is in the music artist and the golden age which follows it.

Very interesting, I’ll have to give this approach I try. Normally I would go straight for either Alpha or Aesthetics after writing (normally on immortal and which depends on how deep a hole I’ve dug myself in expanding). For this approach your first trading chip is essentially code of laws? Normally I would trade aesthetics for maths, iron working, alphabet and perhaps monarchy - are these trades still open by the time you get to code of laws? Normally I’m trying to barter code of laws for currency / calendar and the like. Perhaps it’s different on immortal, but will give it a try nonetheless.

I do struggle with the concept of a tech end date, granted it may be a good way to win but I think you miss the flavour of the game if you’ve conquered everyone by 1400 AD. I often go to space in my games, or a ‘two stage conquest’ - an earlier war followed by something different later on (tanks + bombers is the new favourite). Not a criticism of your preferred play, it’s just helpful I think to hear where different people are coming from as a lot of the advice on this forum tends to be directed to conquest/domination in the renaissance.

 

[sampsa]

Very interesting, I’ll have to give this approach I try. Normally I would go straight for either Alpha or Aesthetics after writing (normally on immortal and which depends on how deep a hole I’ve dug myself in expanding).

Difficulty level does matter quite a lot, too. On deity I don't tech alpha in general, because AIs will get it rather quickly and they always trade it. On immortal it's already a bit different, as self-teching alpha can get you a lot of stuff.

If you often end up in financial trouble in the expansion phase, perhaps you are pushing a bit too hard to spots that are good long-term, but short-term lose ? Pay attention to rivers.

For this approach your first trading chip is essentially code of laws? Normally I would trade aesthetics for maths, iron working, alphabet and perhaps monarchy - are these trades still open by the time you get to code of laws? Normally I’m trying to barter code of laws for currency / calendar and the like. Perhaps it’s different on immortal, but will give it a try nonetheless.

Yes, first trade chip is either CoL or aesth. I think CoL is more reliable on deity, since they don't like going there when the religion is gone. Culture-flavored AIs will go aesth no matter what, perhaps because of so many wonders on that path. You need alpha, math, monarchy, IW via trade and yes, they are available (eventually) when your tech path is focused and the empire is set up well. Stuff like currency and calendar is nice of course, but also something you'll eventually get one way or another. Not something I'd in general put emphasis on, because it's a distraction from the main strategy.

If things go "bad" or your land is -poor, you can use the bulbed philo as a trade chip. On good starts you can often hold onto that though, even on deity.

I do struggle with the concept of a tech end date, granted it may be a good way to win but I think you miss the flavour of the game if you’ve conquered everyone by 1400 AD. I often go to space in my games, or a ‘two stage conquest’ - an earlier war followed by something different later on (tanks + bombers is the new favourite). Not a criticism of your preferred play, it’s just helpful I think to hear where different people are coming from as a lot of the advice on this forum tends to be directed to conquest/domination in the renaissance.

I'm not saying that I'm immune to flavor, but I can see only two directions in improving your game: either win faster or win more reliably. I'm trying to combine these two and if the game is taking me to direction where flavor ceases to exist, I modify the settings (map type for example) to get a game that feels like a game. This is why I don't really enjoy pangaea-type games as I think on most maps the cuirassier strategy just breaks the game.

 

[shakabrade]

What is the willingness of the AI to trade away aesthetics?

On deity, I self-research aesthetics because I can trade it away for alphabet. Below deity, I need to research alphabet manually because the AI does not get it quickly or reliably. Therefore, although researching aesthetics early (to build the Parthenon) below deity does not incur "huge opportunity cost", the main benefit is also not there.

Aesthetics itself only enables three world wonders. Below deity, if I wanted one of those wonders for whatever reason, I can take it by force and then demand aesthetics from the victim. If I cannot take it by force, that means the wonders are on another continent. With multiple continents, I focus on liberalism - - > astronomy, which leads to early scientific method.

Maybe a bit obsolete answering when the discussion has progressed a bit but: I would say that this really depends on both the diffciulty and the neighbours. Mansa can help with research even on Monarch. Also depending on their flavours. Willem in my games will always beeline Alpha and he is a willing trader, just to give some example. At lower than Monarch difficulty, I would say that you are totally right. Emperor and Imm, still depends but your points are worth considering. On lower level, I tend to go to Space and Parthenon can still prove useful, but if I wanted to win with Military, the last unit you need to tech is a treb and maybe a knight. Parthenon is indeed not really useful in that case.

 

[shakabrade]

To avoid any further misunderstandings, I'll explain what I'm talking about tech by tech. After early techs go writing, then CoL via myst-(medi)-poly-priesthood. Now we are ready to get monarchy from trade when available, which is often needed to grow asap. Then go aesth-lit-music, whether or not you have marble. With the only GS produced before the golden age, bulb philo. Need math via trade, which shouldn't be hard as both CoL and aesth are good trade bait. When the cities are ready for it (should be immediately after music), start the golden age with the music GA aiming to get generate 3 GS (plus one or even two GM if possible, but they are a bonus). Tech goes CS-paper, bulbs go 2*edu and lib.

If you have enough production (usually means forest) you can build GLib, NE, Parthenon if you want to, but none of that is strictly necessary, because the strength of this line is in the music artist and the golden age which follows it.

Interesting tech path with CoL so early. You also value early HR which means that you probably whip less than I do.
I must say that I almost always go Aesthetics - Alphabet (traded) - Poly (often traded)- Maths (often traded) - IW (traded for) - Lit - Music. And recently, in some dozen of games I am totally focusing on getting a GA from Music, I have had a huge success. I still end up with Bureaucracy around 1AD, but setting up the 2nd GAge is so much easier and that is probably the time when I make a huge leap forward to the flashy victory. Regarding CoL, it can be a pain to self-tech it and I actively avoid to do it. More often than not, it is available in trades if many AIs are known. But if not, since many AIs like to build Chicken Pizza, they "have their reasons" not to trade it and you should just tech it to start with serious GPP generation. The second trading Chip I normally use without CoL is a Compass (extremely reliable, only Hannibal goes for it early) and then the Music. Wonders on this tech path are nice to have, but Aesthetics + Music + GA + ability for some failgold with Marble, Gold or Ivory (very often you have at least something) is more than enough.

EDIT: Your tech path with HR and CoL is probably very good for isolation and almost isolation scenario.

 

[sampsa]

Interesting tech path with CoL so early. You also value early HR which means that you probably whip less than I do.

Yes, because I think nearly all buildings outside of granary are optional for the strategy in question. Not whipping allows cities to be ready for the golden age sooner. Also, less emphasis on means more emphasis on . I'm not sure if going CoL first changes much really, perhaps just a minor detail. With SPI it probably matters a bit, I mean maybe you can go with zero libraries.

I must say that I almost always go Aesthetics - Alphabet (traded) - Poly (often traded)- Maths (often traded) - IW (traded for) - Lit - Music. And recently, in some dozen of games I am totally focusing on getting a GA from Music, I have had a huge success. I still end up with Bureaucracy around 1AD, but setting up the 2nd GAge is so much easier and that is probably the time when I make a huge leap forward to the flashy victory. Regarding CoL, it can be a pain to self-tech it and I actively avoid to do it. More often than not, it is available in trades if many AIs are known. But if not, since many AIs like to build Chicken Pizza, they "have their reasons" not to trade it and you should just tech it to start with serious GPP generation. The second trading Chip I normally use without CoL is a Compass (extremely reliable, only Hannibal goes for it early) and then the Music. Wonders on this tech path are nice to have, but Aesthetics + Music + GA + ability for some failgold with Marble, Gold or Ivory (very often you have at least something) is more than enough.

My experience is the same and the main point I was trying to make is that for the cuirassier play, the music artist is the main reason for aesth-line, not marble wonders (and this doesn't mean that they are bad!). Me and BiC seem to speak a different language so I got a bit frustrated.

EDIT: Your tech path with HR and CoL is probably very good for isolation and almost isolation scenario.

Yes, I think that's how I kinda ended up with the path, only then realized it works pretty well even with trading opportunities.