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Passing the Torch

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Rex Tyrannus, Feb 25, 2010.

  1. Rex Tyrannus

    Rex Tyrannus 280lbs of gross stupidity

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    My vote is 2. Thoughts on why:

    Mansa is already more advanced than we are. Our best hope is to outproduce him and that's easier, in my opinion, the less advanced everyone is.
    We could possibly go the whole game without removing Mansa, but I don't like his cultural pressure on our north.
    Sally piling on doesn't scare me in the least. He and Mansa are each others' worst enemy. It would take a lot to get Sally into the war and it would take a lot of time for Sally to mobilize.

    Now, losing Mansa might slow us down against the other continent. He's a reliable tech partner who will still trade long after the others fear you are becoming advanced. So, while #2 is still my vote, my next vote would be for keeping everything peaceful, building culture up north, and waiting until we know more about continent B.
     
  2. justinious

    justinious Chieftain

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    I vote d.
    Personally, I just like space (also astro. can get you great trades!:goodjob:)
     
  3. Rowain deWolf

    Rowain deWolf King

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    @ yellow city: Yep I do agree with 1 NW. additional don't build anything on the tundratiles so that forest can spread to them. This location says 'National Park' to me ;)

    @war: going after Sally wouldn't do much good as MM's strong culture would steal alot of the nice tiles. Best would be a Mali-Arabian war where you backstab Mali and take his cities ;) (and later get rid of Saladin).
     
  4. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    justinious,

    I know you want space. That's fine. But what's our path to space? Plan (d) doesn't really exist. I mean, I supppose we could wait for everyone to declare war and run over us, but that doesn't seem like much fun to me. :)

    The way a game like Civ4 works is that it requires planning and strategy to reach a goal. To reach space, we need to reach a number of subgoals. Those are -- strong economy (to research the techs we need) and strong production (to build all the parts). Both of those are easiest with a largish nation and a number of strong cities. So we have to decide about HOW to build our large nation and strong cities. That's the discussion now.

    So, space, great! But ... how do we get there?

    Arathorn
     
  5. arkenstone

    arkenstone Chieftain

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    i do not like space i like conquing lands and overrunning people because then i feel like i have lots of power then!
     
  6. IdiotsOpposite

    IdiotsOpposite Boom, headshot.

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    UNLURK

    Wow, this is a great game. Keep it up!

    I may be a lurker, but I like the idea of killing Mansa.

    Killing Saladin you can do at any time with your tech advantage. Mansa is different. You'll have a difficult time killing him later, when he's even more entrenched than he is now. Also, you share a border with him... and you won't have to worry about Mansa being patchworked across your continent.

    But I'm not part of this game, I'm just giving ideas.

    RELURK
     
  7. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    No consensus. I'll probably build up for war with Mansa then.

    Arathorn
     
  8. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    I figured since I played moderately poorly, I can report poorly, too. :p

    Research: We are not ready for war. We are lacking a critical tech. My general rule of thumb is that if the opponent has longbows, you need trebuchets. If they don't have longbows, you're OK with catapults. Mansa has longbows, so we need trebs. That requires Engineering. Fortunately, that's just a 5-turn research away. That actually helps a military a TON more than gunpowder, because it also provides pikes which are a reasonable defense to MM's knights. After that, I started us towards optics to meet opponents and prove the world is round (to get the ship movement bonus).

    Civics: Since we get no anarchy to change civics during our Golden Age and our GA was about over, I made the arbitrary decision to swap civics. To get a bit of balance, though, I didn't go vassalage for legal (the only civic I changed).

    Bur gives us more finance and better production and all kinds of things.

    I mostly built longbows early (to defend our cities when our main army marches out -- and to defend our newly-captured cities) and trebs/pikes later, with a few macemen sprinkled in to actually take cities. Being me, I snuck in a couple workers, too. :p No settler, though, even though it wouldn't be bad.

    Of interest...

    Fortunately, we are bigger than MM.

    Nothing has come up for vote yet, however. We'll want the Apostolic Palace when we take out MM, though. Extra hammers for Jewish buildings are good.

    We also got another great person.

    I'd put him on our first caravel (which will probably come from New York) and ship him overseas to explore a bit and then to do a trade mission to get us a bunch of gold.

    Our main force is in Atlanta. I don't think it's quite large enough yet (needs another 1-2 pikes, 2-4 maces, and 1-3 trebs probably). But that was before I realized that Mansa and Saladin are at war! I moved one of our spies who was in Saladin's land to get a better view of MM and realized they're fighting. We can probably move now.

    Arkenstone, be careful with our Atlanta stack. Leave at least one longbow and one pike in Atlanta. If you're careful and good, though, we should be able to get Mansa's capital in about 5 turns. Use the trebs to soften the defenders and then go in. If you're willing to wait, I can watch and make suggestions. If you want to do it alone, though, that's fine.

    Sorry for the poor play and report,
    Arathorn
     

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  9. Whosit

    Whosit Entropic Knight

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    Say, don't sell everyone short like that! Poor play (if it really was that) deserves as much of a report as great play does! Well, it looks like your first big fight is coming up.

    Remember what each unit is designed to do best. Siege weapons (catapults and trebuchets) should be protected because they make it possible to capture cities. Hopefully your fights will go well!
     
  10. Admiral Kutzov

    Admiral Kutzov Idiot Emeritus

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    nice game. makes me remember some of what I've forgotten. :crazyeye: :thumbsup:
     
  11. arkenstone

    arkenstone Chieftain

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    there is omly really to things to say. 1) we captured timbuckto and 2) stlain captred Dejinne and i guees three. mansa musa only has 9ish units total i guess there is also a four find someone on the other coninaet if it is memedII get war emetiditly! after a world map.
     

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  12. Rex Tyrannus

    Rex Tyrannus 280lbs of gross stupidity

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    Nice to see you again, Admiral. How's Igor these days? :)

    @Arkenstone, any chance we can get a little more detail?
     
  13. Rex Tyrannus

    Rex Tyrannus 280lbs of gross stupidity

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    Opening up the save, I get a really good idea of what happened during Arkenstone's turns. It looks like our forces are split in three, with the main stack having just taken out Mansa's capital. Great, I'll keep prosecuting the war until Mali is extinguished and, as Arkenstone pointed out, that won't take long. I really see it as just a race between us and Sally to gobble up as much of Mali as possible. Hopefully, sally will spend his troops softening up the defense for us. :)

    To that, it's unfortunate that Sally has taken Djenne, the Jewish holy city. With all the Judaism spreading we've done, we've instantly made Sally much more relevant in world affairs. I'd like to take that city (and perhaps the rest of his empire) soon. The best time might just be while he's waging war. He's probably lost a bunch of troops as I've never seen the AI manage an efficient attack. As long as we do, I'm thinking we'll have the significant upper hand.

    Next, I'd like to veto the Forbidden Palace build that just started in [forgot name of city that's just to the west of Washington]. FP needs to go in a city (Probably Mansa's former capital) where it'll do some good. The FP acts like a second capital for all "distance from capital" effects. With one capital in the north and another (Washington) in the south, we can manage our entire empire effectively.

    Regardless, I'll keep pumping units. We still have the tech advantage (though idiot Mansa might give Sally a bunch of tech for peace) and our units will still be "modern" whenever we decide to attack Sally.
     
  14. Rex Tyrannus

    Rex Tyrannus 280lbs of gross stupidity

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    Okay, I'll play tonight as outlined above. This is spring break week for Justinious, so he ought to be able to play during the week.
     
  15. Rex Tyrannus

    Rex Tyrannus 280lbs of gross stupidity

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    I'm going to write what is, for me, an exceptionally detailed report. Read: boring. Sorry, but this is our first war and I wanted to impart some of what I've learned

    about the right way to wage war in CivIV. Please note, this is far from the perfect way to wage war in CivIV. You'll see that I highlight one major miscalculation I

    made and I'm certain others can poke holes all throughout. Please do. I'd rather the boys learned from my mistakes than their own.

    'Nuf said. We're 108 miles from Chicago. We've got a full tank of gas and half a pack of Bazooka Joe. Mansa's got 9 visible units and I've got an itchy trigger

    finger.

    Hit it.

    Well, not quite, as previously stated, I examined our empire.

    (Inherited) Turn 200 1400AD



    I was fine with most things here, though the Forbidden Palace needs to go up north. (It wouldn't let me build in Timbuktu. Don't know why.) We had no hammers invested

    in it, so I gleefully switched it to a trebuchet.

    I also wasn't too keen on the University of Sankore in Washington. I let it ride, though, as A) the extra beakers will help and B) we already had a not

    insignificant number of hammers invested.

    Here's the tech scene, for anyone interested.



    Only thing else I did on my inherited turn was whip. I whipped a treb in Atlanta, an Xbow in Philly, a mace in Not Chicago, a forge in Hun, and a workboat in Khoisan.

    Turn 201 1410

    Unfortunately, I still can't let slip the hounds. I've got to deal with all the junk that came in this turn. (My fault for whipping everything in sight.)

    Atlanta treb -> mace
    Not Chicago mace -> Pike
    Philly Xbow -> treb
    Hun forge -> ???

    Research gives us Drama and I choose Education, due in 10.

    We earned another great merchant (Hanno) in Washington, who I park over in Seattle, building a caravel on our west coast.

    And finally, before I can kill anybody, Machiavelli reminds us that we've built enough pretty stuff to be respectful and that we can get back to building things that

    go splortch.



    So...finally? Finally.

    Mansa left a wandering knight on a floodplain. I had a pike nearby. Pikemen (being a more advanced form of spearmen) get double strength against mounted units. Dead

    knight.

    The battle of Walata:​


    Arkenstone had left me four troops outside of Walata: a treb, a knight, a pike, and an axe. Mansa has a longbow, a catapult, and a swordsman. City defense was 0. I

    figure I had enough to take it. I was wrong.

    I first sent the treb in on a suicide mission against the longbow. The intent wasn't to win this fight, but to weaken the longbow and (hopefully) the other troops

    through collateral damage. This worked and I sent in the knight, who took out the longbow.

    Unfortunately, here's where I had miscalculated. I was hoping to use the axe against the sword and the pike against the cat. Nope. Attacking with the axe put the cat

    on top, so my shock-promoted axe only had a 50% chance. Selecting the pike put the sword on top at something around 30%. Not good.

    For now, the battle of Walata is on hold.

    Nearing the end of my turn the only thing left for me to do is move troops into position and keep exploring with my caravel (who has a great merchant loaded up).

    Move one more to the east and...



    Groovy. I traded open borders straight up and bought his map for 110 gold. I didn't want to give my map to anyone. I knew Sitting Bull had no contact with our

    continent and assumed the rest of east continent didn't either. I had a caravel just about ready in Seattle and knew that I was the front-runner for circumnavigation.

    Hit enter.

    Turn 202 1420

    Boston jewish monastery -> mace

    The battle of Walata (part deux):​


    Fortunately, Mansa couldn't put another unit in the city between turns, so I ought to be fine this turn. My knight from last turn's longbow victory was eligible for

    an upgrade so I gave him shock to take out the sword. This gave him 89.7% odds and we had no surprises there.

    So now I had a choice versus the cat. Axe at 50% or pike at 67%. I made the decision to use the axe, figuring that I could see another 2 Malinese knights on the prowl

    and I wanted to keep the pike alive.

    Axe goes in...and dies...without hurting the cat 1/10th of an HP. Curses and mean-spirited sentiment spewed forth. Well, at least I have the pike.

    Crosses fingers...



    I started it on a theatre and shook hands with our new great general in Boston (who is still there--what to do with him?).

    I then did a once over of our empire and decided to whip the caravel in Seattle. I wanted that circum bonus.


    Turn 203 1430


    New York courthouse -> treb
    Bactrian treb -> knight
    Seattle carvel -> treb

    Mansa left a swordsman out in the open and I clobbered him with a knight @ 89%. Free XP and one less defender to worry about.

    Rest of the turn was movement. I'm getting ready for the assault on Gao. Last turn I had decided, based on Sitting Bull's map that German (probably Berlin) was a good

    target for the trade mission, so I unloaded my merchant and sprinted over to a hill overlooking some white tiles.



    Fred and I did an open borders swap and left cautious of one another. I still hadn't decided on Berlin for the trade mission, though. For one, Hamburg (I think) held

    promise. But I wanted to check out that dark green area. Istanbul was a holy city.

    Still, nothing to do about that yet. Hit enter.



    Turn 204 1440


    Mansa gave me a bit of my own medicine IBT when a spear of his took out a horse archer I'd over extended. Cost of doing business, really. That horse archer had just

    pillaged Mansa's only source of iron. :evil: No more swordsmen or pikemen for you, buddy.

    Still though, can't let something like that go uncontested. His spear died halfheartedly thanks to my knight. Unfortunately, though, the IBT victory gave Mansa a new

    general in Gao.


    The battle of Gao:​


    Someone had put a sign on Gao that declared it to be our primary target. Okay, says I. If you say so. First things first.







    "The shield is down, commence attack on the Death Star's main reactor."

    Now, I could have done that with siege weaponry. But then I would have had to wait five turns and Sally would have gobbled up all the good stuff. And besides, I

    wouldn't have been able to do this...

    city raider (CR) treb attacks city garrison (CG) longbow @ 50% odds to withdraw. He withdraws.

    A note: all other siege is already promoted to accuracy 1 and barrage 1. This is less than ideal compared to CR. Barrage is somewhat useful when attacking big stacks,

    but CR usually gives better all around value.

    treb vs CG longbow @ 53.5% withdraws
    mace wins v cat
    mace wins v bow
    mace wins v bow
    xbow wins v spear



    Taking the city sank a galley and killed the general Mansa never had a chance to use. I started it up on a theatre.

    Continuing my trek to sell our great merchant at the highest price, I took him to Hamburg (I think), Germany's second largest city, and one that overlooks the Ottoman empire.



    Of course he's annoyed with us. Won't give us open borders. Hamburg offers us 1500 for our merchant, so I send him back to Berlin.

    I also met Pacal this turn with the caravel that had dropped off our merchant. Forgot to get a screenshot, but I did trade him open borders straight up.

    Hit enter




    Turn 205 1450


    IBT a treb I had been sending up met demise at a Mali sword who'd wandered down into "our" land.

    Boston mace -> treb


    Then this pops up.



    We're the resident of the AP??? Needless to say, I declined to put forward an ammendment.

    I took out that uppity sword from the IBT using an axe I had handy in Atlanta and that's when I notice that Timbuktu is starving. Guess it came out of revolt. It's losing food badly, so I whipped the monument it was building. There was a penalty for having no hammers in it, but it brought the city out of starvation.

    I'm finally able to settle down with my merchant this turn and he promptly sets up shop in Berlin, netting us 1700 gold and letting me crank the science slider for a while.



    Turn 206 1460


    New York treb -> jewish monastery
    Hun worker -> lighthouse. (that's why I didn't write down the hun build, the worker had been queued)
    Timbuktu monument-> jewish monastery



    Turn 207 1470

    These are quiet years as I'm moving the bulk of our army over to Kumbi Saleh. We're in a race, though, as Sally's got about 23 horse archers and two cats moving in. We'll arrive in position on the same turn, but I think it doesn't matter anyway as Sally's likely to spend 16 turns taking the defense down with two cats.



    Turn 208 1480

    Washington completes the university of sankore...




    ...and begins a knight.
    Boston treb -> pike
    New York jewish monastery -> pike
    Bactrian knight -> pike
    Timbuktu jewish monastery -> pike
    Walata comes out of resistance and whips a theatre

    I built a lot of pikes here. All in response to Sally's enormous horse archer stacks that will, knowing my luck, all turn into camel archers the turn before I attack.



    Turn 209 1490


    Boston pike -> pike
    Seattle treb -> harbor
    Walata theatre -> harbor



    The battle of Kumbi Saleh:​


    Just like with Gao, I used a spy to take out any defense. Sally had taken it down to 27% so I might not have needed to. Either way, you can see in the screenshot, that I had turned our espionage slider up to 60% for a turn to get the espionage points to do it.



    Kumbi Saleh is harder than Gao. It's on a hill and its longbows are better promoted. On top is a hills defense (guerilla?) 2 longbow. Let's rain death with trebs.

    CR1 treb v longbow dies at 11.4% odds
    Barrage treb v longbow dies at 12.5%
    barage treb dies v longbow at 44.1% odds without hurting the bow!!!!
    barage + accuracy cat loses to longbow at 5.9%
    barage + accuracy cat loses to longbow. Another without hurting the bastard!!!
    All out of siege. Bummer.

    CR mace v longbow loses at 66.5%
    combat + cover mace wins v longbow at 83.4%
    combat 2 mace wins v longbow at 84.6
    cr mace v longbow # 95.1 wins
    combat 2 pike beats a knight at 99.5
    combat 3 knight beats the last bow @ 99.9+

    We take the city, but lose the screenshot. Kumbi Saleh has the apostolic palace.

    That was it for my killing. Mansa has one more city, but it'll be tough to get it before Sally's legion of horses.

    Looking up from the war for a moment, I notice that we'll have education next turn. No one has liberalism. ...hmmm....







    Turn 210 15000

    Education comes in and I select liberalism, due in three (at 100% science, which we can afford). Unfortunately, we can't do any of the really cool slingshots. Nationalism is probably our best choice. I could use a Taj golden age.

    Washington knight -> university

    The only thing worth noting is that I had loaded great merchant 2 onto west-side caravel back in turn 203 or so. I zig-zagged west all set and he has just revealed the last longitude. Next one to hit enter will receive the circumnavigation bonus.
     

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  16. Whosit

    Whosit Entropic Knight

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    You probably couldn't build the Forbidden Palace in Timbuktu because the city did not have a Courthouse (required to build the FP). Nice Akbar reference, too. Sense the Nerdiness in you, I do. :p

    No critique on the war just yet, but why did you buy Philosophy with cash rather than techs? If any of those techs were known on the other continent, it might have been worth it to trade them away. Of course, it's good to know that you are more advanced than them.
     
  17. ruff_hi

    ruff_hi Live 4ever! Or die trying

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    Nice report. Got to stop writing it in notepad and then posting it to the forum - get some horrid line wraps. BTW - a treb with barrage is worthless. Barrage I gives +20% collateral damage based on base str ... so that is ... 4 x (1 + 20%) rounded down to ... errr ... 4 :sad:.
     
  18. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    Is anyone else close to Liberalism? If not, maybe we can do a better slingshot. If so, Nationalism is pretty good.

    Next big check -- semi-immediate war with Saladin? Rex seems to be leaning that way. I'm OK with it. Most of our original cities should be more than self-sufficient now. We can also start filling in the south and the holes in our core lands. More troops and some settlers and still some theaters/forges/granaries. Good stuff.

    Arathorn
     
  19. Rex Tyrannus

    Rex Tyrannus 280lbs of gross stupidity

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    While we're at war, Freddie can out tech us. Last I checked, he lacked education. The problem is that I put science to 100% to cash in our merchant. We can sustain that for about 8 turns, if I remember correctly. I don't believe we have enough to give the full oomph behind one of the better slingshots.

    I'd rather get a bad slingshot than let Freddie take it.
     
  20. Verarde

    Verarde Pondering Wearing A Hat

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    1) Great set! Getting that trade mission helped, perhaps you should turn down the :espionage: and go for the deficit :science: especially if you want the Liberalism slingshot.

    2) Meeting four civs! Wow! Trading just got a little easier, instead of having the worst in the game next to you. And maybe competition became more intense. :(

    3) Nice job on the war. Walata and Kumbi Saleh are yours now, how many cities does Mansa Musa have remaining?

    That's all from me for now. Arathorn, are you playing any Lotr games right now?
     

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