Patch 1.09 released!

[Psyringe]

Your polls are unscientific in nature and inconclusive based on nothing but the base consideration of sample size to the size of your total population, not to mention all coming from the exact same base population of this Forum.

Also please note that it is an accepted fact that ALL internet polls suffer from the same failing. They are not random sample but rather seeking out to be heard. IE: The only ones that answer them are the ones that want to.

Yes, these arguments are common tactics if one doesn't like the outcome of a poll. I'm dealing with polls scientifically and I come across these arguments very often. I do have the impression that you are no newbie regarding polls either, so you probably know what I'm talking about.

So what do you do in an environment where cannot get the ideal, scientifically waterproof poll? You make do with the ones you have, and you try to get a meta-poll based on the polls you have.

What we have are lots of polls which show that the game has issues for a subgroup of its customers, but that the criticism that is voiced here is way overblown. At the very least I would expect from the critics (who were the first ones who demanded polls, which puts their now shown reluctance to accept their results in a strange light) that they present at least some polls which support their view. So far I've seen only one site that comes close to that, that's the Amazon review average which currently shows 2.5 of 5 stars. This value has been mentioned again and again by the critics, who, strangely, don't seem to have any objection to accept the outcome of this "poll", while happily disregarding all others.

Now, the Amazon review average is a sign that the game is certainly not problem-free, as are most of the other polls (20% of people who can't or won't play the game because of bugs, as shown in one CFC poll, are nothing to be proud of and are a clear sign that this game has not seen a perfect release). But I honestly don't see anything that supports the partly outrageous claims that some of the critics have made.

This, btw, is the reason why I participate here. I don't deny that the Civ4 release could have been better (although I actually think that it was far better than the Civ3 release, but that's another story). But some people go way overboard with there criticism, and the game is far too good to leave that uncommented.

 

[SilverKnight]

But some people go way overboard with there criticism, and the game is far too good to leave that uncommented.

You mispelled "there" in the context, it should have been "their," so your whole point is invalid. And you're avatar's UGLY!

I'm kidding, by the way, no one send me death threats.

SilverKnight

 

[Psyringe]

Blue3c. lets just compare what you said in the past and what you said now.

Past:

Padma, you and others have said it works for more then it doesn't. I have asked this before, but I will ask again. Where do you get such data. Did you poll a group who purchased the game. Or are you just assuming. Please if you have a poll or this data then post it. Otherwise don't assume that it works for more then it doesn't. Scrolling around this forum and others I see more people posting problems then oh its great. I will give you the whole if it works they are playing and not posting. But, without some solid data no one can say either way.

You demanded a poll. There was no mention of the poll having to be random or this site's polls being skewed. You even took data from this site (number of complaint threads) to support your claim, and you even admitted that there might be people who may not post here because they are playing the game.

We have shown you polls. Now you say:

I said before and I will say again YOU CAN NOT USE a poll from this site with concrete numbers. This site is biased. People who come here love the whole series. Therefore they are biased. If you had a random poll like I said before and agian later I would beleive it and shut up about your numbers. But your numbers a skewed and biased.
[...]
Read what I say before you spout off. None of you posting links to these polls on this site have in fact read what I said. You just saw what you wanted to. Talk about self centered there buddy.
I did not demand I said show me numbers to support your dam post. I said show me unbiased numbers. YOU CAN NOT. They do not exist which makes your statements e7of 80% untrue because you CAN NOT BACK THEM UP WITH SOLID DATA, as I have said before.

So, suddenly polls are not enough, they have to be "unbiased". And the polls on CFC are "skewed". The only data from CFC that is acceptable is the number of complaint threads, which (so you claim) supports your claims. All other data is skewed.

To see this line of arguing fom someone who demands *unbiased* arguments is ... interesting.

When I show you your contridictions and the strange evolution of your arguments, you call me "self centered", tell me to "STFU", and resort to strange claims:

I am sorry, I should be saying go civ go. u rah rah. conform to your thorughts and expectations.

Nowhere have I said that. I actually enjoy critical discussions of the games I play, as long as they are constructive. I never said you should go "u rah rah". I'd be happy already if you'd just stop this rather pointless crusade and switched to constructive criticism.

 

[Civrules]

Moderator Action: There are a few aggressive replies here (even after my warning on the previous page). The discussion is all fine, but I don't like the style of it. There are better ways to lead a discussion. It is almost impossible for one to impose their opinion on another person who disagrees just as much with the topic. Therefore it's pointless to argue. I really don't want to see any more aggressive posts from this point on.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Cytadc]

Polls are fine and all but as someone somwhere once said.

There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics.

I personally dislike polls, any poll can be easily managed, phrased, etc to say what you want it to. My argument has never been that the game fails for most people. My own point is that it fails for too many people. I have stated that I enjoy this game and continue to play it and try to find ways to make it run better, but my argument is if the game had been properly tested etc that I wouldn't have to do that. I am, as I see it, rightfully angry. Any angry or ugly comments I have made were likely in the heat of the moment and in response to what me seemed insulting comments/responses. Heh, you should have seen the original version of my last post, yikes... talk about flame war, happily I can say I heavily edited it and did my best for a reasoned argument at the polls DESPITE the shortcomings.

Even with the acknowledged shortcomings almost every internet sampling I have seen (even the 9.2 etc reviews when you read them instead of looking at the average score) have shown a similiar break down of a very small minority totally unable to get the game to work, to a significant minority with large problems, to a larger still minority that have a playable game that is buggy and crash prone and slow, to a about 45% to 50% majority that have no problem with it and love it, to a still smaller majority of about 1% to 2% that have a fully working great game that piss me off by insulting and attacking personally those that have the timerity to have a game that doesn't work the way they have a consumers right to expect it to work.

PS: Just try getting any higher level education in history/poli sci without taking tons of statistics courses... God how I hated that... 5 hour tests in the testing center outside of class time to solve 3 problems...
With X and Y and Z as blah blah analyze the statistical probablities links blah blah blah that produce A and B and demonstrate how they can be falsley used etc... and then the logic classes... EEGADS.

Oh great thanks for bringing out horrific flash backs!
(Actually I liked Logic... just not Statistics and especially not polling specifics, ugh... talk about manipulation of the numbers)

Edit: I accept that probably about 80% of the people with this game are happy. The primary point I make is... 15% badly buggy and 5% unusable is not acceptabl, or rather should not be acceptable.
Edit: PS: Very little here if this is the "tech support" of Firaxis would I consider to be even remotely tech support. More rants/raves/arguments/debates about the merits of the game etc and a listing of its failing by those it doesn't work for with some of those it does work for showing up everynow and then and attacking those it doesn't work for because they have the temerity to complain about a product that doesn't work for them.

Am I a broken record? Maybe so... but the whole situation really is frustrating.

PPS: I hope this isn't an aggressive Post.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

TheOldStatesman, I will make one last reply to answer your post. You ask me what happened to my 'neutrality' and unbiased opinion. They are still there, but I am not going to pan a game which I am personally enjoying more than any other I have ever played just to create some illusion of 'neutrality'. Nor have I ever claimed that people have not genuinely experienced problems with how the game runs (or doesn't, as the case may be) on their computer-after all, I did point out that I too had some difficulties with the game in the first week or two I owned it (frequent CTD's and graphics artifacts). I should point out, though, that I couldn't play Doom3 AT ALL for a whole month-but I didn't go and B**CH at Doom sites how IDSoftware had lost the plot. Why, because I discovered that ALL of my problems stemmed-somehow-from my graphics card and, when I DOWNGRADED, everything worked great and-after the patch-Civ4 particularly has never worked better. It may seem strange, but those experiences ARE going to colour my view of the game overall. What BUGS me about the ranting going on in this forum, and what has gotten me especially pent-up and furious is NOT people expressing a negative opinion about the game (which they are most certainly entitled to do), but how it seems like everyone with a beef about the game (technical or gameplay) is starting their OWN thread to complain about it-thus drowning out the positive comments-and the fact that many are joining CFC for that sole purpose. Also, it bugs me when people claim to be part of a majority, when in fact no clear evidence exists to suggest that they are-and they dismiss all evidence, both here and elsewhere, that actually refutes their claims of majority status.
As I said above, though, to me the whole point is now MOOT-as I now intend to spend the entirety of my time either playing the game (over 12 hours alone this last weekend) and hanging out in the Strategy, Stories and Customization threads of this forum-and the Apolyton forums-with all the others apparently on the Firaxis 'payroll' , and leave the rest of you lot to 'vent your spleens' in peace.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Dynomutt]

I am having trouble downloading the patch. I can access the various servers and mirrors (I think), but the patch refuses to download. I can see the download screen acting like something's going on, but the progress bar never, ever advances beyond the first green tick-mark. I don't think there's anything wrong with my connections. Can anyone help?

 

[blue3c]

You use words like demanded, and take my words out of context. Even if the words solid data mean nothing to you.
I enjoy the fact that you have taken a personal crusade against me. Thats fine. Again, please read what I said in context.
The game was rushed. The games first attempt at a patch is terrible. There is no poll with solid data as ASKED for it my first post.
Define solid data, unbiased and random. neither of which there are.
There are no complete reviews of the game. Not one mentions any of the problems many have seen in here.
4 machines tested out of 5 and I get the same results with the in game update. Waiting on the download for the 5th and final machine.
I have no clue what the problem is because I am not a coder. I stick to the hardware and os support.
All 5 machines so far have shown the same error at or around the same point.
I believe by testing on 5 different machines I have ruled out hardware. The only constant is Viking memory and nvdia cards. Not a big fan of ATI, but thats for another day.
Testing on different versions of windows with different sp levels have come up with the same conclusions. There are ten other people in our lan party group. All but one have the same issues. So could I consider that a valid poll. NO. Same as here. I do not consider these polls to be valid. Sure they are a good gague of the people who come to this site all the time and those same people support this series in full.
I used to. I loved civ, civII was more fun. Once I got to civ III all the patches where there. So I have no idea what others went through with this. From a few posts on here I heard it was rough. But again I have nothing solid to base that on.
The things that really upset me are these.
1) not one review mentioned one issue with the game. At least none that I read.
2) from what little of the game I have played it looks amazing, and the pisses me off more because I can not finish a game. Talk about your all time tease.
3) people who come in and claim it is my software or hardware that is the problem
4) people who use polls to support statements (which IMO) do not come from solid data.
5)people who post here just looking to get others pissed and upset.
I would be happy to support the game if it worked. If I saw some fix. That fix will not come until a expansion pack. Which means I will have to drop more green on it just to be able to play the game I bought in the first time.
I have tried other games on these setups that civ fails on. They all work with maxed out everything. No lag, no ctd no hard lock of any system. For those wondering. BF2, BF2 special forces, DOOMIII Age of Empires III. I think that is solid testing. By the way AGE III Plays flawless with everything maxed and lagest maps as many computer opp as I can. It works wonders.
Why is it then that civ iv gives me ctd's and hard locks. And wait imagine this. AGE III works out of the box that way. I know I know shocking. Wait thats the way it should be. Side note most wanted runs with everything maxed awesome. Again this is right out of the box. Which confuses me even more.
Can anyone answer why those games all work perfectly, most right out of the box, with the exception of bf2 and bf2 sf. And civ doesn't even after a patch. Please tell me and I will make the change (if it is on my end) and never post again. But I am positive it is not on my end. It is the code. What in the code of the game causes this. Hark I think is on to it. He is a coder. Something tells me he beats firaxis and take2 to a ptach that actually fixes the game. Any takers.

 

[blue3c]

I am having trouble downloading the patch. I can access the various servers and mirrors (I think), but the patch refuses to download. I can see the download screen acting like something's going on, but the progress bar never, ever advances beyond the first green tick-mark. I don't think there's anything wrong with my connections. Can anyone help?

Try clearing your cache directory, then clear your ie cache and reboot. Try the in game patch again, you should get it.

 

[Psyringe]

I am having trouble downloading the patch. I can access the various servers and mirrors (I think), but the patch refuses to download. I can see the download screen acting like something's going on, but the progress bar never, ever advances beyond the first green tick-mark. I don't think there's anything wrong with my connections. Can anyone help?

Hmm, if you can't download it from within the game, nor from Civfanatics, nor from Apolyton, then reason is very likely in your connection or in your computer. Perhaps a Firewall problem?

Can you download other large files (the patch is rather large, 23 MB) from other sites without problems?

 

[Rising Sun]

I notice there alot of horn blowers and trash pickin going on in here maybe it about time to lock this thread once for all!

 

[Overlag]

Oh, so NOW we are all on the Payroll of Firaxis/Take2 if we like this game and are having no trouble with it . Sheesh, that excuse is so pathetic that it barely deserves any comment at all (and shows how desperate you have become to seem like nothing more than a VERY vocal minority). You asked me to show you a poll that showed more than 80% of people liking the game/enjoying the game and/or having little to no trouble with the game-and I showed you almost a dozen. Oh, but NOW they are all WRONG or BIASED because they don't AGREE with YOUR opinion of the game-man, this is evidence that you are such a SELF-INVOLVED little whiner Blue. If anything, I think these polls are biased AGAINST those who like the game, because most of the regular members of these forums are actually off PLAYING the game-or hanging out in the more INTELLIGENT areas of the Forum. But no, this Forum is biased against whiners, apparently, simply because actual polling shows that the whiners are nothing more than a VERY vocal minority. Oh and, let me assure you, I play HUGE maps-and often huge TERRA maps-and play a lot of online games-and I am still having incredibly smooth games with little to no lag AT ALL (with the few minor hitches I had removed by small alterations to my Civ4.ini file). I repeat, those with problems are clearly not having them due to problems with the game-or else EVERYONE would be having the same difficulties-but because of their computer set ups (I, for one, had MAJOR general difficulties with my Radeon 9550 card, but not with an older 9250 card), or HOW they installed the original game and/or the subsequent patch. Seriously, though, comparing the problems some people are having with planes falling out of the sky is a clear indication of how desperate and shrill the vocal minority here have become, and are a clear indication of the fact that-if I want INTELLIGENT conversation-then the General Discussion threads are NOT the place to come. So, for the VERY last time, I say GOOD BYE and GOOD LUCK to all the intelligent members of this forum. To the rest of you .

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

yup... im on the payroll too according to some guys on the alt.games.civ3 newsgroup.....just because my game runs great with 2gig ram, and runs "ok" with 512mb.

 

[Dynomutt]

I can download files of 3 meg size quite quickly. I realize this is not nearly the size of the patch. Maybe it is a firewall issue...<shrug>

 

[Dynomutt]

OK, real stupid question...which cache directory do I clear? I have so many. I guess you mean by clearing my IE cache to delete my Temporary Internet Files. I can attempt it...

And it still does not work. The in-game patch loading gets to about 83k and freezes. I even tried doing this with my windows firewall switched off. What the hell.

Edited to add further:

I think I actually got it to work. Damned if I know what I did, but I think it had something to do w/ disabling some download block I had. <shrug>

 

[Yrth]

OK, real stupid question...which cache directory do I clear? I have so many. I guess you mean by clearing my IE cache to delete my Temporary Internet Files. I can attempt it...

And it still does not work. The in-game patch loading gets to about 83k and freezes. I even tried doing this with my windows firewall switched off. What the hell.

You don't have to do it manually. Hold down the SHIFT key when you fire up CivIV and it will clear it up. I keep holding it down until I see that it is loading without a cache, then I'll release.

 

[Dynomutt]

Thanx...I wish I knew this sort of stuff beforehand.

 

[joe8137]

And it still does not work. The in-game patch loading gets to about 83k and freezes. I even tried doing this with my windows firewall switched off. What the hell.

I had a similar problem with the in-game patch, it got to about 5% then it would just stop and go back to my desktop. I just downloaded from the site and installed.

Patch made the game worse! Everything was working fine prior, wasn't even thinking of a patch until my brother called and said that he was having problems. The patch made all the unts move slow and choppy. All the caravels in the game turned a solid color...same as my borders. Then when I go war, the enemy units don't move during battle. I need to get rid of this patch. I've running large terra maps with a ton of civs since I got the game and have finished several, so I don't think its anything but the patch.

Anyone know how to get rid of the patch without having to uninstall the whole program?

 

[blue3c]

Thanx...I wish I knew this sort of stuff beforehand.

Yah unless you are having problems I would not install this patch. The ones I downloaded removed the exe. The in game update seems to be the way to go if you are going to update. I would wait though. Either way good luck.

 

[purplengold14]

Just uninstall ur civ 4. It should have a check box saying unistall patch. Just check this box and not the whole game. This patch sucks. The game is great but it crashs like crazy. I have superceeded all the requirments for this game, have a nvidia fx 5500 card. I play on low screen quality and i still get crashs all the time. It is also silly for people who love civ and can run it ok to defend this crappy buggy thing we paid for. Too many people are having problems with this game. Im sick of reloading this game every 20 minutes.

 

[Psyringe]

You use words like demanded, and take my words out of context.

Well, if you dislike the word "demanded", let's change it in "asked for". No problem with that. I didn't want to imply any accusation by using "demand".

It doesn't change my argument though, which is that you were the one who *wanted* a poll, yet didn't accept its outcome, a decision that you based on an perceived "skewedness" of CFC - a skewedness that you never mentioned before you were shown that the poll really doesn't support your claim in any way, on the contrary, you did (and do) use data from CFC when you think it supports your claims.

I did read what you said in context. I followed the whole thread where you first said it. Your post is here. I don't see which context I missed, can you be more specific?

There is no poll with solid data as ASKED for it my first post.
Define solid data, unbiased and random. neither of which there are.

Based on these definitons: Do you agree that there is *no solid data* that supports your claims that the game does not work for the majority of users? Further, based on your definition, do you agree that there is no solid data to even prove that the minority of users who have problems is substantially large? Finally, based on your definition, do you agree that there is no solid data to contradict claims that the game works for everyone but a very small minority?

Please notice, I do not make these claims. My claim is that about 20% of people can't/won't play the game (a number which is too large, and should - and will - be fixed by Firaxis). I can make this claim because I accept the polls as the best data we have. But since you don't accept them, and since your standard of "solid data" is so high, you cannot even provide "solid data" that more than 0.5% of users are having problems. Right?

No matter which level of data "solidity" you want, you should use it for your own claims as well. You cannot just count the number of complaint threads vs "It's great" threads to support your claims, and at the same time ask for a professional, scientific, random-sample poll from us for our claims.

Now on to the topics where we don't disagree *that* much:

1) not one review mentioned one issue with the game. At least none that I read.

I agree that a good review should mention that some people are having problems. I wrote a small review myself, and my baseline was: The game is great, but check your specs, and test how it runs on your machine before you buy it.

2) from what little of the game I have played it looks amazing, and the pisses me off more because I can not finish a game. Talk about your all time tease.

I understand your frustration. For me, it was similar with Guild Wars. It ran fine for a week (so that I got really hooked), then all of the sudden it kept crashing. I saw the great graphics. I met my friends from the guild. I disappointed people who tried to do a mission with me because you cannot rejoin the mission after a crash. It was not nice. Tech support an I spent about a week before we found a solution.

But I never felt compelled to go to the forums and rant about it. That just wouldn't have helped.

3) people who come in and claim it is my software or hardware that is the problem

It can't be only the game alone because it runs fine on many (I believe most) systems. It can't be your software/hardware alone because there is no common pattern in either software or hardware among those who experience problems. Most likely it's an interaction between both.

In any case, putting the blame on your machines is as silly as putting the blame on Firaxis. Currently we just don't know for sure what the problem is. I suggest not blaming anyone, but helping Firaxis to make the game run on all these machines.

4) people who use polls to support statements (which IMO) do not come from solid data.

Your definition of solid data isn't met by any poll we could possible do. We'd need a professional poll taker to do that. You know that we can't do that. So why did you ask for it in the first place?

The polls are the best what we have. They may be skewed towards the positive because this is a fan site. They may also be skewed towards the negative because this site is at least semi-official (linked from the game's support page, so people with problems are more likely to land here) and because many people may just happily play the game and not be concerned about forums and polls at all. Since these influence factors go into both directions, I suggest to take the poll results as they are.

Of course, it's always easy to say "But this is a fansite", when the polls seem too positive for oneself. It's equally easy to say "But the majority is playing instead of polling, and this site is linked from the game's support page" when the polls seem too negative for oneself. But this bickering about the poll quality won't lead to anything. These polls are the best data we have, either we take it, or we close the case because we won't get better data and discussion about this subject is moot.

5)people who post here just looking to get others pissed and upset.

Yes, that's a problem. I've seen people claiming that it is *necessary* to make people upset in order to create some "public dissent" to impress Firaxis. I definitely oppose this notion. Firaxis doesn't need any fan upset to work on the game, they are doing this already.

I would be happy to support the game if it worked. If I saw some fix. That fix will not come until a expansion pack.

Based on your current behavior, I don't think that any patch is likely to appease you. I have the impression that you will look foremost for things that don't work and that you can criticize. I also doubt that, when a patch truly worked, you'd really tell us about it. I base my expectations on the way you have dealt with the game so far.

An example: You said that the patch would come in two weeks and that it would not solve the issues. The patch came three days later and solved the issues for some people, but not for all. I didn't see a positive comment from you about the patch coming sooner than you expected. I didn't see you saying something positive about the fixes. Instead you concentrated on things that still don't work. I think you will continue to do this. But that's just my current impression, and I may be wrong. I actually hope I am.