Pathfinders and scouting need rebalancing

[Buddha2723]

Especially in the recent 43 civ test I did(huge continent map, marathon, immortal), pathfinders became a significant issue clogging up the map. Later, when my own awesome pathfinder had nothing left to do, he nearly became stranded and worthless before he made it home. I think there should be a limit on pathfinders(2-3), and a larger one on scouts. This would make explorers the first unlimited scout class unit, and limit the number of units traveling through neutral lands in early eras, eating up space, and making it impossible for the player to find ancient ruins(so far not more than one per exploring unit), and also for barbarians to form in 43 player games.

To prevent them from becoming worthless if stranded during exploring, scouting units should gain the great admiral's travel ability, this would let them return home if trapped, or travel quickly to a newly colonized continent, essentially booking passage for the small band of explorers on a fast trade ship(sloop), rather than waiting for lumbering troop ships(galleons).

In a previous marathon test, the pathfinder became a big issue specifically with Polynesia, and it's synergy with their ability to enter ocean. By midgame the pathfinder, now explorer, had 1,000+ experience, and was in danger of breaking the game, I think*. It certainly had anchored all my invasions with it's double medic promotion, and ability to heal after attacking. To correct this, I think pathfinder and maybe also scout should be restricted the way dromons are, unable to end turn in ocean. This will eliminate the huge advantage from circumnavigating, and meeting extra civs Polynesia currently has in early era starts. ***Polynesia should have to at least build a naval unit or pay to upgrade to a scout, to circumnavigate the globe, right now they essentially start with a caravel that gains free exp.

Consolidation from below, 12:04 PM central-


I'm probably leaving out some crucial information. At a time when contemporary units were composite bowman and swordsman, my original Polynesian pathfinder, now scout, was attacking swordsman from the flank as I invaded, because he had three triple promotions, and both medics, so if I could attack from neutral land, I would heal 30 points(10 from medic I+II, 10 from survivalism I+II).

I think I conquered three cities just because my Polynesian pathfinder had so much exp so early, and when I upgraded him to a scout, then explorer? Game over.

*(Thorough math explanation-My scout would attack and heal on the same turn, with survivalism III, he then got the 5 or 10 base heal points,(enemy/neutral), then added the 20 points mentioned above) The tactical advatage I had of moving to defensible terrain, attacking their strongest unit, then healing to 90+ was overwhelming.

*Of all the changes I've suggested, I think they could all be left out, except the ability of a stuck scout to return to friendly territory. You guys made the scout awesome, don't create the situation where your only chance of saving him is to declare war and sprint through enemy lines to get home. When has that ever happened in history with a small band of scouts? ** "We've finally reached the edge of our great continent! But France just bought the tile behind us, so now it is time for seppuku." (This should cost you 5 turns of travel back to the capital, not deleting a 100 exp scout, or declaring war on France and his knights)

*Another reason I think you should limit the number of early scout units is for the AI, it will make them stronger because I feel scouts have a diminishing return value for the AI, if they stop at say three paths, and 4 or 5 scouts, then more of their production would go to military units and structures, a better ROI for them than a sixth scout.

 

[tu_79]

You are mixing issues. Polynesia could do that even before the recent changes to scouts. That's their main feature. Well, moais are good too, but the ability to enter ocean, settle everywhere and discover the whole world in no time is their most unique feature. I won't support removing the ability.

Scouts units are certainly much better than before. Previously they were useless after revealing the map was done. Now they can be used as escorts, patrols (preventing barbs from spawning, seriously, they are pestering the game if you don't control them somehow), forest defender and fast healer. They die a little less than before, so they survive longer and you can see them later, managed by AI.

Being trapped is still a posibility. You can avoid it by not risking into soon to be settled territory, but no pain no gain. We suggested to give scouts the ability to enter non-opened territory as long as they end the turn outside, like ships do with ocean. It didn't make the cut.

I would have preferred scouts being more squishy and less tanky than now, so they perform more like true old fashioned scouts (fleeing from fights their main feature, seeing afar their second), but they are far better than before, so I can only half heartedly complain.

 

[Gokudo01]

I strongly support the integration of "disagree strongly"or "dislike" button(like reddit or stellaris forum) near the like button, because it's what I feel about your post for so many reasons, I don't even think I've got the time to be exhaustive about it.

 

[Funak]

I don't really see how you getting your 45 hammer pathfinder stuck after it already did 90% of its job is a gamebreaking issue or anything. If you think the area it's stuck in is interesting, keep it around there and if you don't care about the area delete it.

 

[Buddha2723]

For tu_79, I don't want Polynesia to lose this ability, just the pathfinder, maybe scout, make Polynesia build a trireme to explore ocean, that's still way early. Or they could still scout with a civilian unit. The fact that paths and scouts gain ocean exp give Poly scouts tons of exp early game(another solution is to lessen ocean tiles exp gain), way, way too much. If you build one pathfinder, he gets tons of exp, and then he is stuck, that is hugely frustrating and unrealistic. They could simply pose as traders/travelers and pass through or around borders to get home, they don't have swords and armor.

Goduko, please address me more directly, and also what I've said.

For Funak, prehaps you don't play huge maps or marathon games? There is a lot of exploring to do, and by the time you're done, you can't embark yet, or negotiate open borders, so you have to waste that unit by deleting it, which is frustrating after it has 5+ promotions and is completely irreplaceable, since you've scouted all land and can't scout the ocean for hundreds of years still.

*Of all the changes I've suggested, I think they could all be left out, except the ability of a stuck scout to return to friendly territory. You guys made the scout awesome, don't create the situation where your only chance of saving him is to declare war and sprint through enemy lines to get home. When has that ever happened in history with a small band of scouts? ** "We've finally reached the edge of our great continent! But France just bought the tile behind us, so now it is time for seppuku." (This should cost you 5 turns of travel back to the capital, not deleting a 100 exp scout, or declaring war on France and his knights)

 

[Buddha2723]

I'm probably leaving out some crucial information. At a time when contemporary units were composite bowman and swordsman, my original Polynesian pathfinder, now scout, was attacking swordsman from the flank as I invaded, because he had three triple promotions, and both medics, so if I could attack from neutral land, I would heal 30 points(10 from medic I+II, 10 from survivalism I+II).

I think I conquered three cities just because my Polynesian pathfinder had so much exp so early, and when I upgraded him to a scout, then explorer? Game over.

*(Thorough math explanation-My scout would attack and heal on the same turn, with survivalism III, he then got the 5 or 10 base heal points,(enemy/neutral), then added the 20 points mentioned above) The tactical advatage I had of moving to defensible terrain, attacking their strongest unit, then healing to 90+ was overwhelming.

**Another potential fix for this, would be for the survivalism III trait to be altered so the unit can no longer attack after it gains a heal every turn.

 

[Buddha2723]

I created my own scenarios for civ 5, I'm not a mod maker but I have done lots of playtesting, you should seriously consider my feedback.

*Another reason I think you should limit the number of early scout units is for the AI, it will make them stronger because I feel scouts have a diminishing return value for the AI, if they stop at say three paths, and 4 or 5 scouts, then more of their production would go to military units and structures, a better ROI for them than a sixth scout.

 

[tu_79]

Another reason I think you should limit the number of early scout units is for the AI

I don't play big maps, so I never found AI with more than 2 pathfinders. I've never heard of a complain from people that play on huge. Until now.

About your frustation, I've said it already. You are taking risks. If you don't want to get stuck, don't risk. I've sometimes left that high level scout waiting for an open border for 200 turns. It's not rational, I know.

 

[ElliotS]

I've said I'm for a solution to scouts getting stuck, but that's the only change I support. Could scouts have the ability to move through land who you have an embassy in?

 

[tu_79]

I've said I'm for a solution to scouts getting stuck, but that's the only change I support. Could scouts have the ability to move through land who you have an embassy in?

The fear with that kind of feature is capturing some great people and pillaging some strategic resources the same turn war is declared. For this to work, a declaration of war, followed by expulsion from the territory, should be necessary before any damage can be done.

Or this could be limited. Buddha proposal of a 'returning home' feature is not bad, but I'm not sure how this can be implemented (five turns of non existance? turn the unit into a civil unit until it arrives to friendly territory? Adding an action button or perform a movement into closed territory?

Another limit could be that only one scout unit is allowed to tresspass at the same time. Or that any unit in a closed territory will lose 49HP per turn. Or both.

 

[emdash]

I would support, on a slightly unrelated note, scouts to have a heal every turn of... heal after action except attacking. Even though they can still tank really well, so that sucks. They are def too powerful when they become scouts and have that major heal. They can clear barb camps solo and sometimes even go toe to toe with another unit (like a swordsman.) Maybe heal every turn unless they take damage that turn.

As for this, it sucks when scouts get stuck due to settling, but I just delete them. I've had exploring boats get stuck behind icebergs. I still dunno how that happens, but it does. Then they can't get home to get a deep water promotion. sadface.

 

[Buddha2723]

Or this could be limited. Buddha proposal of a 'returning home' feature is not bad, but I'm not sure how this can be implemented (five turns of non existance? turn the unit into a civil unit until it arrives to friendly territory? Adding an action button or perform a movement into closed territory?

The Great Admiral has an ability that should be able to be copy/pasted, though without editing it would let such scouts travel only to any port city, and the capital city only might be more balanced.

*Also potentially the cargo ship ability to change ports, with the turns increased.

 

[Buddha2723]

As for this, it sucks when scouts get stuck due to settling, but I just delete them. I've had exploring boats get stuck behind icebergs. I still dunno how that happens, but it does. Then they can't get home to get a deep water promotion. sadface.

Expanding borders push the ship to the nearest open tile, I'm guessing, not caring that it might strand you behind ice.

 

[Buddha2723]

I don't play big maps, so I never found AI with more than 2 pathfinders. I've never heard of a complain from people that play on huge. Until now.

About your frustation, I've said it already. You are taking risks. If you don't want to get stuck, don't risk. I've sometimes left that high level scout waiting for an open border for 200 turns. It's not rational, I know.

I'm on another playtest now, and my scout has been stuck for about that time, now 12 turns from getting astronomy and freeing him, he was landlocked, but eventually tile buying put him out to sea. If you can get a return home ability added, I think 5/10/15 and 20 turns to return home per speed seems about fair to me, that's 5 for quick, 20 for marathon.

As for huge maps, something has changed, they used to drag on during AI phase, now turns go much faster, and I can actually finish a game. Feedback on the lategame will be coming once I finish this new playtest. The others ran into issues around the midgame, more from my play than any mod issues.