PBEM Four Players with Self Alliance

[DogBoy]

*****WAR*****WAR*****WAR*****

The Greeks have declared war on the Byzantines, and their MPP drew the Portuguese into the war.

The Greeks have declared war on the Koreans, and their MPP drew the Dutch into the war.

The Germans have declared war on the Dutch, and their MPP drew the Koreans into the war.

The Germans declared war on the Swiss, and their MPP drew the English into the war.

My longtime ally, friend, and mutual trading partner has turned on me and stabbed me in the back. I have suspected it for some time, and now I know it for sure. Me and the Byzantines/Portuguese had a deal to trade techs, luxuries, and resources for a long time. Then one time he decided not to renew a luxury agreement when it ran out, even though I just renewed one with him. But we worked out those differences and continued to trade. Then all of a sudden I go back an age and get an outdated tech and find out he already has it! There is only two things I can think about that. Either he got it from somebody else or he researched himself. The Portuguese couldn't have researched it because they were researching something else. The Byzantines could have researched it but it would have taken forever. But he told me he just researched it last turn and was going to give it to me. Hmm, sounds suspicious because he goes before me. Then a few turns later I get an advanced tech that neither of us was researching and he already has that one! He said he just got that one also and forgot to tell me he was researching it. Sounds very suspicious to me. Then I turn both my civs to max research and get mass production one turn and flight the next, and guess what...he has both of those! So it's obvious now that he has been going behind my back and trading with somebody. I just don't know who. Since everybody else has mass production and flight, it's either the Dutch/Korean team or the Swiss/England team, or both. And since the Dutch/Korean are on the same land mass as me, they will have to go. So I decided to attack this turn not giving one turn notice. Call it cheap if you will, but turning my ally against me is cheaper.

I will post my battle reports here instead of sending each of you something individually. That way you won't have to forward e-mails and such. I forgot to write down exatcly what I lost and what I killed but will do so in the future.

Greeks:
-Captured the Byzantine city of Mount Predesad killing everybody inside.
-Captured the Byzantine city of West Predesad killing everybody inside.
-Captured the Byzantine city of West Predesadburg killing everybody inside.
-Killed that stack of 4 riflemen and 2 guerillas outside West Predesadburg.
These were costly battles and I lost about 10 infantry and 5 cavalry.

Germans:
-Captured the Dutch city of Smyrna killing everybody inside.
-Captured the Dutch city of Leiden killing everybody inside.
-Then I see a Swiss transport with a bunch of Infantry in Dutch territory. So I think, either the Swiss just declared war on the Dutch or he landed those units there to come and get me. But his transport is undefended, and it's obvious that I'm behind in tech. I know that the Dutch/Korean team and the Swiss/English team teamed up to catch up to me and the Byzantine/Portuguese team. I do some calculation and I don't see how the Dutch/Korean team and the Byzantine/Portuguese team can get ahead of me in techs by themselves because the Byzantines are so small and the Koreans were once referred to as the swamp-dwelling, volcano-inhabitating, desert living people. Basically their land sucks also. So I figure the Swiss/English team is coming to invade me. If I'm wrong, then I profusely apologize and will make amends. However, I did sink an English destroyer in the waters just off the Eastern German coast.
-Captured 4 Dutch workers near Middleburg.
-Captured 4 and then 3 Dutch workers near Arnhem.
-Bombed a bunch of Dutch land.

Once again, I'm sorry for not keeping better records of the battles and I will do better in the future (if there is anymore battles).

 

[Rubberjello]

Whoah! Whoah! Whoah!

I thought you were supposed to give one-turn war notices in PBEM games???
OK. I'll call you CHEAP then!
This was totally unexpected and uncalled for.

P.S. Who the hell are the "Swiss" you keep ranting about?

And please go over the logic again for declaring war on the Dutch and Koreans who have been peacefully sharing your borders for soooo long, and have not giving you the slightest provocation? I kind of missed your reasoning behind that action. ???

 

[DogBoy]

The Swiss are Carthage. Since they get the Swiss Mercenary, I called them the Swiss.

My logic for declaring war on the Dutch/Koreans is thus:
-My ally betrayed me.
-He could only betray me by teaming up with you or Zurichuk.
-I know you and Zurichuk have been working together.
-After finding Carthage units in your land I realize that you and Zurichuk are still working together.
-I now know that my ally has to be working with both of you. (I have suspected it for some time)
-I have watched my civs go from "compared to these guys our military is strong" to "compared to these guys our military is weak" against the Dutch, Carthage, Portuguese.
-I have to launch a pre-emptive strike to kill you before you kill me.

That is my reasoning for going to war against the Dutch/Korea. (If you read earlier is this thread I have been accused of using "DogBoy Logic" so that might have happened again.)

I have never heard of giving a one turn notice before declaring war. All our peace deals have run out long ago. If everybody else here thinks what I did was wrong and I should have given a one turn notice before declaring war then let me know and we will discuss it.

 

[CivAddict2002]

we had never discussed it but i think its proper to give a one turn notice before declaring war. i vote doing your turn over and if you want to fight then you declare war and then you can attack.

i already played and sent my turn so RJ may need to hold off until we settle this.

 

[Rubberjello]

Yep. That is Dogboy logic


First of all, you have no proof your ally was involved with the Dutch/Koreans, only conjecture.
Secondly: A pre-emptive strike has been the excuse warmongers and tyrants have used thousands of times throughout history to rationalize war. (I include Bush Jr. in this category, BTW).
Thirdly: I have no idea why there are Carthage troops in my territory. They were certainly not there last turn! I have not opened the game yet so I don't see how things stand. And by your own admission, you didn't see them until "after" you attacked the Netherlands? What kind of circular logic is that?
Fourthly: Let's just call it like it is: You are the warmongering aggressor here. Correct? This is a "Wargame" after all. You don't really need flimsy excuses. I just want everyone to know clearly who the aggressor is here.

Depending upon how Zuri votes, I guess we could just continue on. Germany/Greece will go down in infamy for this blatant and unjustified sneak attack. I really kind of regret the loss of those innocent workers working on the border tiles --- the loss of those two cities don't hurt me nearly as much, as our borders were so packed with close cities that no matter who went first, it would seem "unfair".

 

[zurichuk]

well to me it's a war-game, i think a warning should be given in the case of any deals that may be going on and therefore broken but in the case of dogboy attacking myself i had no peace deal, no other deal and a warning would only give me an advantage

 

[Gwadaman]

Sorry to ask a stupid question but Dogboy said he's calling Carthage the Swiss because they have Swiss mercenaries...but aren't they supposed to be the Dutch UU? Or I missed something on this topic about game configuration.

 

[zurichuk]

Sorry to ask a stupid question but Dogboy said he's calling Carthage the Swiss because they have Swiss mercenaries...but aren't they supposed to be the Dutch UU? Or I missed something on this topic about game configuration.

yep for Carthage it's the Numidian Mercenary, the Dutch have the Swiss pikeman, just a small confusion

 

[Rubberjello]

Well, in that case. (Just to make Dogboy's logic even more Byzantine) Greece and the Netherlands had an existing Wines-Ivory Lux deal going when he declared war. To be fair to him though - Yes. Any pre-existing peace deals (in terms of turn limitations) had expired).

 

[Rubberjello]

Let's see here now....Greek invasion forces landed in Korea's rear. That is *at least* 5 turns away via frigate transport, which means Dogboy has been planning this offensive for 5 turns. That kind of throws all his initial justifications for going to war out the window, doesn't it? (Kind of like no WMD for the Bush Administration)

Netherlands has been hurt badly from the initial attacks. Having no Rubber is just a killer at this point.
Bombarded and killed 6 Infantry which had landed on the Iron behind Masstrict with the loss of 3 Guerillas.
Bombarded and killed 2 Worker-killing Infantry next to Middleburg with the loss of 1 Cavalry.
Bombarded and killed 2 Worker-killing Infantry next to Arnheim with the loss of 3 Cavs. (vs Red-lined Infantry? That sucked!)
Bombarded and killed 2 Infantry next to Hamburg with the loss of 1 Cavalry.

Korea is doomed. The consideration of mass suicide and salting the earth is being considered. They only bombarded the Greek invasion forces a little bit. No Rubber is again the culprit, (and probably the worst land for start short of the Byzantine start that I've seen in a long, long, time) Again, the Greeks captured many workers on the borders. The Greeks are at least more human than the Germans, who *KILLED* all those innocent workers. War crimes charges should be considered if the German King is ever brought to justice. (Which doesn't look likely now, even with the rest of the world against him)

 

[DogBoy]

Ok, time to defend myself.

Sorry for calling them Swiss. I did get confused and meant to call them Numidian Mercenaries. But I couldn't remember the Numidian part, and I put Swiss to Mercenaries, so I just called them Swiss. Sorry for the confusion.

True, I had no proof that the Byzantines/Portuguese was involved with the Dutch/Korean team. However, I knew they had to be involved with somebody. The could either be involved with the D/K team or the C/E team. However, I know that the D/K and the C/E have been working together. Since the B/P team double crossed me, they had to run to the other side. Since I have seen no messages on this board about the D/K and the C/E team fighting, I have seen no messages calling each other names or anything of that nature, and not only did the B/P team stay caught up with me in techs, but they passed me! To include outdated techs! It only seemed to reason that the D/K and the C/E team were still together and now they have involved the B/P team. Also a comment you made in posts 155-157 led me to believe I was being conspired against. I said I knew that the D/K and the C/E team ARE working together. You made the comment that you know that me and the B/P team WERE working together. Possible a Freudian slip? And since I have almost certain proof that the B/P is allied with someone, and that someone is most likely the D/K and the C/E team, I know I'm in trouble. The B/P team must pay for their treachery. But if I only attack them, I'm sure their allies will jump in and save them so I had to stop them before they attacked me. Seeing the C/E team land infantry on your land, while being after the fact, proves my point. There is also an e-mail between the C/E team and myself that helps to prove my point. As for my ships that landed infantry behind your Korean lines, yes, proves I have been planning this for at least 4-5 turns. But like I said, I have suspected that the B/P was betraying me, and when I got mass production and flight and my allies had both, I knew for a fact they were betraying me. I didn't get the save and think "time to go to war". I have been planning it since I suspected something.

I have other e-mails from Zurichuk but I don't have this game. I don't know who is holding it up. My guess is Zurichuk is because Rubberjello has posted battle reports here. Is he working on it or am I supposed to play my turn over again?

Off topic: I think Bush was 100% right in what he did by getting rid of Saddam Hussein. I don't want to discuss it here because this topic is for another forum. If you want to see my reasons, head on over to the Ascendancy forum under the Off Topic heading with the thread "Bush or Kerry, who to vote for?

 

[zurichuk]

i sent it a few minutes ago but i was having problems with diplomacy (and i've only had the game an hour), the alliance thing was really screwing up and a civ declared war on me in my turn after signing a MPP!!! it was showing on the diplomacy screen as 'at war' and 'MPP' i thought it could be a submarine on goto but that couldn't happen

i would advise saving between turns

i lost 2 navy units atttacking 2 navy units

 

[DogBoy]

Ok, that took a long time.

Battle reports:
-Pillaged/bombed a lot of roads around the Dutch cities of Amsterdam, Arnhem, Den Helder, Utrecht, Middleburg. I also pillaged your saltpeter tile.

-Pillaged/bombed roads in Korean territory around Pusan, as well as your saltpeter source.

-Wounded a few infantry in Germany lands on top of that mountain.

-Germany lost a cruiser to a Carthage destroyer near Carthage's western coast.

Nothing else to report.

 

[Rubberjello]

Just some worker wierdness going on here. This is the first time I've experienced it. About 90% of the time, when I interrupt my worker actions at the *beginning* of my turn (to get them the hell out of the way!!!), I get the message "This unit has already moved". Now, I know I don't get this in single play and in my other PBEMs (unless, of course, these workers have completed their actions at the end of the previous turn). Is this PBEM wierdness? Or just with this game? Anyway, it is beyond annoying.

And another wierd thing: I bombarded this Incense square last turn. It showed the craters and no roads (of course) Yet this turn Dogboy mysteriously has a road already built on it. Unless he has an uber worker with a movement of 2, that is impossible! What gives?

 

[Rubberjello]

Bremen 3 German Infantry killed. 5 Workers captured
Utrecht (German Incense) 5 Greek Infantry killed. 5 Workers captured
Amsterdam 1 German Infantry killed, 4 workers captured.
Groningen - 4 unguarded Greek Artillery captured and destroyed.

Korea:
Bombarded and killed 3 Greek infantry on Saltpeter.

The Portuguese have been bought off by the Germans. I don't know what their leader is using for brains, but it smells like pig doodoo, looks like pig doodoo, and tastes like pig......
Let's see here: If a tyrant is taking over 2/3'rds of the world while he sits back and does nothing, while his sister Civ was viciously killed in one blow....Hmmmm....do you think that just maybe...JUST MAYBE! You'll be next on the hit list??? Hmmmm???? Geee...I wonder????

 

[DogBoy]

Rubberjello, I have had the same thing happen in this game also. But I think it's the same with other PBEMs. What happens in these PBEMs is a lot of the turns seems to move "at the end of the turn". What I mean is do an auto move for your unit and see what it does at the end of the turn. It will take one of those extra steps and won't be able to move next turn. I have noticed some of my artillery is not making craters in your land. As for those workers, I didn't move them onto that square. I did the "build road to here" feature and the road was completed at the end of the turn. I have also had the same problem with not being able to move workers. In our always war game I tried to click on a worker at the beginning of my turn but it said it had already moved. So my guess is that's just a feature of PBEMs.

 

[Rubberjello]

What I mean is do an auto move for your unit and see what it does at the end of the turn. It will take one of those extra steps and won't be able to move next turn.

Uhmm...I thought taking advantage of the "Goto...extra step" bug was a big no-no in PBEM games? I guess I've been missing the boat here, as I've been especially careful to avoid using any Goto commands that give me that "extra step" since it is a proven bug? At least, that was Predesad and I agreed to.

 

[DogBoy]

Rubberjello, I agree with you there. That's why it's not good to do goto moves in these games. I was telling you that so you could see what happens in case you didn't know. But whether we like it or not, it happens with workers. Because I'm last (Germany in this case), I see it all the time. As soon as I hit the end of turn button, a lot of roads pop up on the map and all the units go "click" and it sounds like they are all fortifying. When I stand on a mountain I can see when the roads in your lands are completed also. It's just a feature that we have to deal with.

As for workers, do you think it's a no-no to do the "build road to here" button? I use that one as well as the "build railroad to here" button all the time. That's the only automation I ever do for my workers. If you think that's a no-no then let me know and I will stop it in this game, as well as other games we are in together. It's just something I never thought of not doing.

 

[zurichuk]

ok not feeling too good, some infection that is spreading from throat to mouth to ears but i played my turns

just some naval exchanges, sank one of Dogboys cruisers, took some hitpoints off others

i'd like a decision also on the goto as i have used it for workers (but not for military)

 

[DogBoy]

Ok, I won't do the "build road to here" function anymore. However, I noticed that when Germany hit the end of turn button, about 12 or so Carthage workers moved onto a square near the city of Malaco. So it's not just the last guy who does the "second move" bug, it can be anybody.

Battle reports:
Greece:
Bombed units in Dutch city of Delft
Killed 2 guerillas by Utretch and lost one cavalry.
Killed Dutch cavalry by Groningen.
Killed Dutch cavalry by Amsterdan and captured 4 workers.
Bombed Korean land by Wonsan.
Bombed Dutch land by Amsterdam.

Germany:
Lost a battleship to English Destroyer
Bombed Carthage land near Malaco.
Lost a cavalry to Dutch guerilla near Utretch
Bombed all units in Delft to 1 hp (but with Sun Tzu does it really matter?)
Bombed Korean roads near Wonsan.
Bombed Dutch lands around a lot of southern cities.