PBEM Four Players with Self Alliance

[zurichuk]

tell me more

ps i haven't received a save for a couple of days, is diplomacy the reason?

pps sounds like you guys are having alot of fun, better than being stuck in a barbarian swamp-like hellhole or an island

 

[DogBoy]

I wish I could post more, but like I said, it's priveledged info. Don't let the Dutch fool you, they know of what I speak.

I don't know why you haven't gotten the save for several days. I sent it to Predesad yesterday. He has sent me our other game twice today so I know he's online. Apricorn posted here so I know he's online. Very odd.

 

[predesad]

ps i haven't received a save for a couple of days, is diplomacy the reason?

i know apricorn got the save because he replied to my email which also contained the save. i would certainly hope nobody is holding up the turn to wait on diplomacy, copmpletely out of character, the game needs to move with or without diplomacy, i know i often do not get to respond to diplomacy until late at might when turns stop coming, because i try to take my turns before getting involved in diplomacy. sometimes i dont have another turn waiting and can respond, other times i need to think and put it on the back burner, but regardless the turn needs to move otherwise everytime someone has a decision to make he'll hold up the game until he hears from everyone to make that decision and we wont get anywhere.

 

[predesad]

The lies of a megolamaniac who searches desperately for excuses to conquer the world!

I challenge you to post this "privileged information" if such information exists. Take your time, if you wish, while your propaganda minister prepares a false pretence for world domination.

Be wary of Dogboy, of the Greeks, Germans or any other race, for it is he, not the Dutch who wages war, without negotiation.

I wish I could comment, but my public silence has been bought. All I can do is suggest the Dutch take an offer from the Germans if they offer peace and thus make amends for this wrong. I hope the Dutch do not go down at this point in the game, but it seems like their stubborn pride and refusal to admit when they are wrong will cost them.

 

[Apricorn]

I played the turn last night. Im sure I sent it onto ZurichUK, but maybe I forgot because of all the diplomacy messages. Apologies if this is the case. Will resend tonight.

By the way, Dogboy's "reason" and privileged info, from what I can make out is that apparently about 30 turns ago, the Dutch told the Germans that the Byzantines were planning on attacking them. Apparently this constitutes an act of agression??
At the time they never expressed any feeling that they had been "wronged"
I suppose a new phrase is born out of this strange reasoning - "Dogboy Logic"

Hmmm, no matter how hard I look at it, I cant make any sense of that.

Predesad - how on earth are the Dutch wrong in this case? Or are you just hoping for a piece of Dogboy's pie?

Dogboy feel free to explain anything you like to the rest, dont worry about confidentiality on my part! Either speak up and back up your accussations or issue a full apology for slurs on my character. Dont hide behind so called "confidential information"

War is a part of the game, so fair enough if you want to wage it for purely conquest reasons. Dont want to hear any of this rubbish about the Dutch fooling anyone though.

I am willing to answer any accusation in public.

 

[predesad]

By the way, Dogboy's "reason" and privileged info, from what I can make out is that apparently about 30 turns ago, the Dutch told the Germans that the Byzantines were planning on attacking them. Apparently this constitutes an act of agression??

King Apricorn, you're only telling half of the story. But should I consider this a confession on your part that you informed the Germans about private discussions between the Byzantines and the Dutch? This really does not bode well for relations between the Dutch and Byzantines. You come to me asking for neutrality in the war and yet you sling more accusations:

Or are you just hoping for a piece of Dogboy's pie?

Surely you have not yet learned to treat the Byzantines with respect, I was about to send your courier back to you with a message, but given these developments I shall have to contemplate this further.

Sir Predesad of the Byzantines

 

[Apricorn]

Predesad, that message was from me as a player to you and Dogboy as players. I talk about the "game" in the message as you did in yours.

 

[Apricorn]

The first person to explain how the Dutch "wronged" the Germans gets a prize!

Any takers?

 

[predesad]

Originally posted by Apricorn
Predesad, that message was from me as a player to you and Dogboy as players. I talk about the "game" in the message.

I am getting sick of all the cr*p that is being thrown about here. Some of it seems personal to me.

Okay Apricorn, you need to take a deep breath and calm down. I am sure I can speak for DogBoy as well as myself since we are in several games together. In fact I will build upon that point to start. DogBoy and I have a 2 player game where it is just he and I, obviously that situation requires us to have a unique relationship vs having other players. We have a game where we are allies, we have a game where we are enemies, we have a game where we are really neither, etc, etc. In diplomacy in one game he might send me an email calling me a coward, a liar, blah, blah, blah. In the next email in a different game in diplomacy it's hey buddy, chum, blah, blah, blah.

There is nothing personal and has never been anything personal. For enjoyment of the game it is always best to maintain a mindset for that particular game. It's just a game, at the end of the day whether you win this game or whether someone wipes you out on the next turn it simply does not matter.

When we had our war I specifically sent you an email and said i was neither taking or meaning anything personal when surely there was plenty of opportunity to do so.

Unless a player specifically states so in an email or the thread I view all comments as "in game" and I always will.

But if you are viewing our comments as personal, then I really wonder about the comments you made, they seemed a tad bit on the harsh side if they were intended as personal comments.

 

[Apricorn]

Originally posted by predesad

If you cannot play the game without taking anything personal then perhaps you should not play, .

This is typical of your patronising attitude Predesad, Sorry, but Ive bit my lip up until now, I dont know whether you realise but you can come across as quite offensive at times.

 

[predesad]

Originally posted by Apricorn


This is typical of your patronising attitude Predesad, Sorry, but Ive bit my lip up until now, I dont know whether you realise but you can come across as quite offensive at times.

Apricorn, I apologize to you if I have in any way offended you. I have went through this before. I in no way shape or form meant any of my comments to be directed personally against the person who sits behind the keyboard and uses the name Apricorn at this site. My comment was perhaps a bit strong abd I did not intend it to be that way.

I know I come off with a partonizing attitude at times, that's all part of the character. You did the same to me, I never thought it was a big deal, but that's not the point. When "predesad" in a PBEM game speaks to another player "predesad" is a tyrant controlling a kingdom which does not exist, predesad is a tyrant even if he is operating under a democracy. that tyrant addresses other rulers of kingdom's which do not exist and there is nothing meant to be personal. Apricorn of the Dutch / Koreans is currently not a friend of Predesad of the Byzantines / Portuguese based on past difficulties. Frankly, I am not DogBoy's friend in some games, but I could reference several threads where I took the initiative to post for him when he was having modem difficulties no matter what the game situation was. While these four fictional rulers have a tenuous relationship, I hope that the real Apricorn and Predesad can always consider themselves to be friends.

Once more I apologize to you.

 

[predesad]

Furthermore, Apricorn, I am enclosing a link here to show just how seriously I take this stuff. If you'll go to that thread and read about the 6th post which is about 2 days old I think it goes a long way to show I take nothing about this game seriously whatsoever.

And again, once more I apologize to you.

 

[zurichuk]

just to let you guys know, i am skipping diplomacy (where possible) for the next couple of turns, i really have no idea what has happened halfway across the world, being isolated as i am and need to 'think over the situation' (ie carefully read all the emails and assess where i actually stand diplomatically at the moment as i have got confused over the double team situation)

just played the turn btw

 

[Apricorn]

Apology accepted.

Lets put it down to a misunderstanding.

I just dont like the way Dogboy is making all sorts of implications without backing any of it up.
If he wants to do it by email, fair enough, but this is a public forum, and can be read by all.
And comments like "For all I know, Apricorn of the Koreans is just as bad! So be cautious of them also." I take as a thinly veiled attack on me as a player. Admittedly I retaliated in kind, which I regret.

 

[Apricorn]

Great - my only potential ally in the world decides to skip dimplomacy for a while!

 

[DogBoy]

Wow! Lots have been posted here while I was at work all day. Since Apricorn doesn't mind if I post priviledged info here, then I will. But first, if I have offended anybody then I also apologize. When I play this game, I play a character. My comments, or aggression, or the reason I start a war, are meant to be in game. Nothing is an attack on someone personally, just their character in game. In fact the only thing I can think of where I did anything offensive was accidentially call Apricorn Apricot one time, and that was completely by mistake. Anyway, here is my point of view. These are the facts as I see it.

-Everything is going fine.
-Predesad e-mails me something very nice for a MPP. I sign it.
-About 3-4 turns later I find that Korea is about to attack the Byzantines.
-Apricorn sends me an e-mail asking me to join in the crusade against the Byzantines with the reason that the Byzantines have cheated the Dutch out of a tech. He also tells me that the Byzantines asked the Dutch for an alliance to kill Germany. In addition, he asks me to keep everything confidential between us.
-I tell him no because a few turns ago I signed a MPP with the Byzantines.
-The next turn Korea attacks the Byzantines, I ask them to make peace or the next turn I am attacking.
-Korea and Byzantines make peace.

Now my thoughts, and not facts.

Then I ask myself, why would the Byzantines give me what they did for a MPP when they were also asking the Dutch to ally and kill Germany? Then I realized that Apricorn never told me what his reply was to Predesad. I also felt mad that Predesad "tricked" me into signing a MPP when he knew he might be going to war soon.

Back to the facts.
-I position an attack force between Presead's capitol and a city he recently settled close to my lands. I knew he was probably weak in one of them because he can't defend them both.
-I sent Predesad an e-mail telling him I suspected the alliance between him and the Dutch to kill Germany. I also tell him our MPP was a farce and I was going to attack him for tricking me. If he wanted to live, he better pay me something good.
-He sent me an e-mail back admitting to the alliance between the Byzantines and the Dutch to kill Germany. He paid me some very good tribute to leave him alone.
-We signed a new MPP, a worthy one.
-I never mentioned how I found out about the alliance because Apricorn asked me to keep the e-mails between him and I private.

Now back to my thoughts.
The Germans were about to be a punching bag by the Dutch and the Byzantines. For whatever reason the Dutch and the Byzantines just could not get along (they both posted their reasons several weeks ago). Now that the Germans and their very close allies are strong, it's payback time. I extored the Byzantines, now I'm about to extort the Dutch. I have no qualms with the Koreans or the Portuguese.

Anyway, that's DogBoy logic. If you wrong me in the game, you better be prepared to pay for it.

I would also like to comment on some things Predesad said. My character in game stays in game. He and I are in several games together and I (and I know he does also) play each game differently. Apricorn, there are other games you and I are in and perhaps we will be the best allies in one of those games. I hope that you don't take the character from this game and apply it to every game. If I were to backstab, reneg on a peace treaty, or conduct a ROP rape, I think that you, or anyone, would have the right to distrust me in every other game. But our non-aggression pact has worn out. I am not cheating, being deceitful, or doing nay exploits. I am declaring war before moving into your territory which is honorable. And that's all I have to say about that.

Got the turn 15 minutes ago, I shall play it now.

 

[Apricorn]

Originally posted by DogBoy



-Apricorn sends me an e-mail asking me to join in the crusade against the Byzantines with the reason that the Byzantines have cheated the Dutch out of a tech

This is not strictly true.
The message was a dimplomatic feeler and was phrased if "in the event of war" would the Germans join in the crusade or remain neutral.

It was NOT a request to join forces to wage war against the Byzantines.

And I still dont see anything there that implicates the Dutch in any wrong doing against the Germans. All theyve done is ask questions!

 

[Apricorn]

Originally posted by DogBoy

The Germans were about to be a punching bag by the Dutch and the Byzantines.

Not true, No plans were ever made for this.

 

[zurichuk]

Originally posted by Apricorn
Great - my only potential ally in the world decides to skip dimplomacy for a while!

only while i'm looking into all my previous emails and seeing what agreements i have with whom, what is expiring, what is valid, i'm doing this as i write, next time i write them down in a text file, looking to resume diplomacy after i've done this, probably tonight (although the SMAC disk laying on the table is diverting my concentration)

edit - for my reference

apricorn: dutch & korea
zurichuk: carthage & england
dogboy: greece & germany
predesad: byzantine & portugal

 

[DogBoy]

Here is the first e-mail you sent me:

I ask you two things in confidence. In the event of war between the Dutch and the Byzantines, would you guarantee neutrality? Secondly would you be interested in joining me, something that would greatly aid your quest for greated living space. I believe the Byzantines have two cities at least. If you joined me in this crusade I would promise to ensure one of these cities was given to you. I know the German people do not want war, but what would they say to a short blitzkrieg war, with a poweful ally, and vwith victory and new lands certain?

That sounds like you asked me to join you in a war to me. I told you I had a MPP with the Byzantines. You sent me this e-mail:

The deceit of the Byzantines is becoming legendary. For only a few turns ago, they were trying to persuade the Dutch to join them in a future crusade against your own good people, who they now claim allegiance. However I refused, and have signed no treaty with the Byzantines despite their efforts.

When I tricked Predesad and told him I knew of an alliance between he and you, he couldn't deny it. I didn't tell him how I found out. Now, I don't know who asked who to form an alliance to kill me. Either was either you or he, nobody has told me. But what I do know is that both of you were planning to kill me, and that counts as aggression towards me. Like I have said, the Byzantines have paid me dearly not to attack them. I have offered you a way out of this but you declined my offer. Perhaps if you had paid me first then it would be the Byzantines that would soon meet my wrath. But it just so happens that I had an attack force near their city earlier than I could get one to yours. Plus, I had to attack them first to find out if there in fact was an alliance to kill me. If my logic is skewed, then so be it. Bottom line is that we are going to war. I gave you a way out, but you denied it. If I am in the wrong here with "DogBoy logic", I can live with it. It's a game, conquest is a victory type, and that is a way that I might try to win.