PBEM Four Players with Self Alliance

[predesad]

i have the turn and i debated taking a break form this gaem when things seemed to get "personal" but it seems like evrything is cleared up, i cannot play the turn right now as i am about to leave to go get my son's t-ball equipment, but i will play it shortly

i would like to respond briefly to Apricorn:

no, the Byzantines cannot be your ally because the Germans have bought their neutrality, or should i say i bought my continued existence and in return had to be quiet and stay neutral. But I am prepared to stay nueutral as long as I am not attacked, as the Germans / Greeks have permitted this according to our terms of the MPP. If you do not attack or otherwise declare war or make another deliberate act of war against me I will not attack you.

to zurichuk

we had a deal on the table, i am offering you this deal assuming it is still valid, if the terms are no longer valid then I expect you to decline the deal. i will email you the details later after i take the turn.

 

[Apricorn]

Originally posted by DogBoy
In the event of war between the Dutch and the Byzantines, would you .

Noice the phrasing of the question, "in the event of war"
I was just trying to explore all possible options.

Im not going to debate this anymore with you Dogboy, its going round in circles and a waste of our energy.

I think it is clear to anyone reading this that the Germans have no valid reason to attack the Dutch, other than conquest (which is fine by me - just dont pretend that the Dutch have been in the wrong diplomatically)

However I would like to apologise profusely to the Byzantines for the Dutch complete lack of judgment in making such enquiries with the Germans. A valuable lesson has been learnt.

But in the Dutch defence, I would like to point out that I knew I was in a precaurious position, it was clear that even before relations had soured between the Dutch and the Byzantines that the Germans and Greeks were trading techs with them. At that time I felt that it was likely that the Byzantines would enlist the help of the Germans or Greeks to destroy me due to the complete breakdown of Dutch - Byzantine relations.
Before the Dutch got the Great Library they had fallen way behind in technology after being more or less equal with the Germans/Greeks/Byzantines only 20 turns before, whcih proves what a precaurious situation the Dutch were in, with most of the rest of the world seemingly allied against them (in trade at least)

 

[predesad]

it was clear that even before relations had soured between the Dutch and the Byzantines that the Germans and Greeks were trading techs with them

that is incorrect, in fact it was the dutch who traded tech with the germans before relations had soured, i know the germans / greeks can back me up on this.

i don't know if this is just an oversight by you or if you simply (King Apricorn) were under the impression the Byzantines traded tech with the Germans / Greeks. immediately after our relations soured yes, i did seek trade with the germans / greeks, after all the byzantines were alone on the continent with their allies far away. of course, soon after we entered into this trade, the Byzantines were extorted...

 

[Apricorn]

Yes the Dutch traded technology with the Germans very early on in the game. The Dutch never made a secret of this, in fact they told the Byzantines about it at the time.

For whatever reason the Dutch began to fear the Byzanantines (more precisely their powerful bargaining position and technological advantage) at some point and for a time considered war. However, they decided against it a long time ago and committed to being a nation of peace

 

[predesad]

For whatever reason the Dutch began to fear the Byzanantines (more precisely their powerful bargaining position and technological advantage) at some point and for a time considered war. However, they decided against it a long time ago and committed to being a nation of peace

Understandably with the Byzantines allied to the mighty portuguese who had a penchant for popping techs, I could understand this fear, however, King Apricorn, when the Byzantines and Portuguese both asked for a renewal of our peace agreement why would you decline if you were committed to peace?

Sir Predesad of the Byzantines

 

[Apricorn]

The Dutch did not decline a renewal of the peace agreement, they agreed, but to a standard game peace treaty rather than a set turn non aggression pact.
Given the complications involved with the last treaty between the Dutch and Byzantines, which was brought to the attention of the whole world (and it was believed that the Byzantines tricked the Dutch into breaking the treaty terms by building a city in a particular position), we wanted to avoid the headache of committing ourselves to ANY long term agreement with the Byzantines, at least until the relationship improved.
This does not in any way mean the Dutch werent committed to peace.

 

[predesad]

Originally posted by Apricorn
The Dutch did not decline a renewal of the peace agreement, they agreed, but to a standard game peace treaty rather than a set turn non aggression pact.
Given the complications involved with the last treaty between the Dutch and Byzantines, which was brought to the attention of the whole world (and it was believed that the Byzantines tricked the Dutch into breaking the treaty terms by building a city in a particular position), we wanted to avoid the headache of committing ourselves to ANY long term agreement with the Byzantines, at least until the relationship improved.
This does not in any way mean the Dutch werent committed to peace.

when i requested a renewal of the peace agreement, i suggested dropping all the extra terms / etc and making it just an agreement to peace. also we did not ask for a long term agreement, we asked for a very short term agreement, 20 turns, in the hopes of building upon the relationship. i do not understand your reasoning here, king apricorn, if you wanted peace why not agree to a peace deal which contained no other conditions / terms? a simple 20 turn peace agreement assures peace which is what you say you wanted. if the relationship did not improve, then go to war when it ends, 20 turns is not that long.

the byzantines built the city where it was built becasue that is the best city location site availbale to us, i can provide a map of the area to show it was the best city site, since this area has been thoroughly explored by dutch / korean units we are certain the dutch know it was the best city site for us, the only place which allowed us to have anything besides complete jungle, or mountains. it was coastal and it had fresh water, and a bonus resource, tropical fruit, not to mention it was on a hill good for defensive pruposes.

in addition, there is no way the city site affected the dutch, it was completely on the opposite side of the dutch near the koreans. to our knowledge th edutch never violated th eterms of the treaty accidental or purposely.

now, if we were trying to get the koreans to break the treaty, then why would we back off the initial accusation? we had received no clear warning the korean unit had committed the indiscretion, only further intimidation from the dutch / koreans. for all we knew the unit was intending to attack, or look for another oppotunistic moment to hurt the byzantines as they had already. in addition, we then let the korean unit pass freely to its home, despite the koreans being unwilling to convince the dutch to do the same for our warrior, who never was permitted to come back home. and how were we to even know the korean warrior would move next to our city, we did not even have knowledge of this unit until it appeared outside our borders.

the Byzantines are convinced the Dutch and the Koreans wanted to leave themselves open to attack us whenever they wanted, just as they did before having ignored our requests, even before the alliance soured, to sign a peace agreement. we did not even request a long term deal, only 20 turns. in addition, the Byzantines believe they have done far more to work toward peaceful relations than the koreans or the dutch.

let it be known by the dutch and the koreans there will be no deals between our mutual nations whatsoever until we do get a guarantee of peace. we are still waiting a private response to our proposal.

Sir Predesad of the Byzantines

 

[zurichuk]

ok first ICBM built, who wants it

 

[Apricorn]

Wrong game?

 

[zurichuk]

oops yep, actually i think they've deleted one of my other games

 

[Apricorn]

Im going away for the weekens so wont be able to play a turn until sunday

 

[DogBoy]

Ok, have a safe trip

 

[DogBoy]

Peace has been made!!! The Dutch offered a peace treaty to the Germans which has been accepted. I will not talk about the specifics of the peace treaty. However, it was such a momentus occasion that the Greeks and the Koreans decided to make peace also. We have also decided on a boundary so neither of us will aggressively settle on each other. This should alleviate any hostilities in the future. The Germans and Greeks are so happy they threw a celebration in honor of Apricorn to recognize his kingdom! Let it be publicly known that we hail Apricorn, King of the Dutch this day

 

[predesad]

whenever i get the turn again, i have patched to ver 1.20 so at least from that point on everyone else will need to patch

 

[zurichuk]

hmmm, i heard it was a pile of brown smelly stuff, in that case you will have to wait for my desktop to come back from being repaired (they said this evening but that probably means Monday), i'll do the upgrade on that one and keep my laptop as 1.15, i have other faster longer-running pbems that are sticking to 1.15

 

[zurichuk]

ok guys just received the turn but cannot play it until tomorrow evening as that's when i get my desktop back and can upgrade to 1.2 (complete with new motherboard, cpu and quadruple the ram of before, old cpu melted ), need to keep 1.15 on this laptop handy for a couple of SG's for which i will probably be up in soon (and i have to concentrate in one of them as i stuffed up in my last round of turns)

 

[zurichuk]

ok peeps i need some feedback

1.22 is available, apparently 1.20 doesn't load into it so when the corrected full patch comes out next week i guess the same could happen, were we right to play in 1.20?, what shall i play in? are we stuffed, should we wait rather than have to backtrack a few turns? i'm still 1.15 on both pcs but willing to experiment on one of them

 

[DogBoy]

Upgrade to 1.20. That patch works just fine. It's the 1.22 that has the problems that won't load some games. In all my PBEMs, I am playing 1.20 and there are no problems whatsoever.

 

[predesad]

dogboy is right about 1.20, i had no choice but to upgrade because of prior commitments in games at another site, i had started these games earlier and basically everyone patches at the same time to keep all players on the same version so my games there had no choice but to move up

 

[Apricorn]

Guys, Due to the fact that Im not living at home at the moment, Im not going to be able to play a turn for a while. Im going to try and get Civ installed on the computer where Im at now, but dont know whether this will be in a few days or a week or two.

If you would like to get a temporary replacement in during this period, I'll understand.