Peaceful game - nice try

[slowcar]

After patching the game and having some spare time (travelling) i decided to play an emperor game (down from deity, to get a feel) with Ghandi, trying not to ICS but building large cities, just for a change.
I signed cooperation pacts with 4 Civs and we were a merry round, denounced Alexander together when he declared on one of "us" and I happily settled.

Beginning of the middle ages it all goes to hell. Even the most remote civs want my land, all my neighbours dropped to hostile and one of my best friends took 5 turns from friendly to hostile, denouncing me and finally declaring.

I started the game enjoying the new diplomacy, but now they all go bonkers that much faster then before.

I just want to play a peaceful game, but absolutely no chance as it seems. I guess dropping the difficulty would make no difference, as the "you are expanding to rapidly" or "we want your land" treshold would be reached earlier.

 

[Doctor Phibes]

After patching the game and having some spare time (travelling) i decided to play an emperor game (down from deity, to get a feel) with Ghandi, trying not to ICS but building large cities, just for a change.
I signed cooperation pacts with 4 Civs and we were a merry round, denounced Alexander together when he declared on one of "us" and I happily settled.

Beginning of the middle ages it all goes to hell. Even the most remote civs want my land, all my neighbours dropped to hostile and one of my best friends took 5 turns from friendly to hostile, denouncing me and finally declaring.

I started the game enjoying the new diplomacy, but now they all go bonkers that much faster then before.

I just want to play a peaceful game, but absolutely no chance as it seems. I guess dropping the difficulty would make no difference, as the "you are expanding to rapidly" or "we want your land" treshold would be reached earlier.

Yes, when some Civ on the other side of a Huge map goes hostile because they covet your land, it's time to think about reinstating the distance penalties from Civ4 - and toning down the happiness cap or interrelating the two. But, yeah, I agree, the diplomacy is no better or worse than pre-patch. It just looks a bit more transparent, that's all.

 

[MarkC1]

So many complaints about difficulty now.. stop using the ultra hard levels.

YES, going down a difficulty level makes a difference. Clearly if you're in the lead and on pace to win, the rest of the world will NOT like that. The difference is that in the lower levels you can manage the invasions that come piecemeal and playing off the AI nations/City States against each other.

It's called "Emperor" for a reason..

 

[joyous_gard]

Yeah, lower difficulties they don't DOW as much.

 

[Doctor Phibes]

So many complaints about difficulty now.. stop using the ultra hard levels.

YES, going down a difficulty level makes a difference. Clearly if you're in the lead and on pace to win, the rest of the world will NOT like that. The difference is that in the lower levels you can manage the invasions that come piecemeal and playing off the AI nations/City States against each other.

It's called "Emperor" for a reason..

Doesn't make any difference, I haven't gone any higher than King, and the same raving irrationality that is laughably called 'diplomacy' rules. And it's not about the game being hard, for me. Obviously what do I care if some idiot on the other side of the world covets my lands? (Given the broken combat system, they'll get their clock cleaned if they try for them.) It's just that Civ5 diplomacy is silly - as it stands it would be better if it could be turned off entirely, then you wouldn't have to waste playing time on stupid animated leaderheads who keep asking for 75% of your gold every three turns.

 

[MarkC1]

Clearly King is too much for you.. Try Prince. It's my prefered difficulty level. You get denunciations at most.. unless you're doing something incredibly wrong like having a severely weak standing army or something.

 

[LuCypher73]

I am playing on king at the moment and I agree that the diplomacy seems wonky but I just got the bollywood achievement and had a rather peaceful game. I didnt actually declare war on anyone but after already playing a game post patch I expected it to happen. Let me tell you a lil something that will give you peace of mind. Build himeji and take oligarchy. Then build a respectable defense force with plenty of ranged units. I survived at least 2 massive invasions from germany without so much as a scratch. I dont believe that any one of there units ever actually attacked by cities. At least on king level and below these defensive boosts should render you damn near invincible. I only had 3 cities the entire game and since I wasnt sure if puppets counted against the achievement I made no aggressive wars.

 

[Islet]

So many complaints about difficulty now.. stop using the ultra hard levels.

In pre-patch games, if you want peaceful games, with a 5-man army, you choose Settler difficulty. It does certainly make the diplomacy seem not broken because it doesn't even come into play.

So therefore, if players select Settler difficulty, there would be no need for a patch because it is not broken. Does this argument stand?

Diplomacy, regardless of difficulty, should at least stand on a most basic level at all difficulties. AI, halfway across the world, coveting your lands and neighbors flipping all of a sudden to dogpile you is not a working diplomacy, it just adds frustration. Especially when at higher difficulties, the AI already gets all sorts of production bonuses.

The game even appears to recognize the difference, having the option of Aggressive AI in the Advanced Options tab.

 

[qyll]

Yeah, this appears to be a side effect of the AI trying to win for themselves. I think there was a discussion somewhere about whether to make AI more fun or more competitive. I mean, if you play multiplayer, you have zero chance of winning a peaceful victory. Some would consider this AI as a step toward being more human.

 

[Lessa]

Lots of trades seem to help. I play on Emperor and although I usually play on island type maps I find that, even if I am sharing my island, unless I am next to a real warmonger as long as I can get through the early stages, frequent trades keep me on good terms with them.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I just won a blowout game on emperor w/o signing any pacts at all. Nobody ever declared on me because I was on my own continent and didn't piss anyone off. 1901 space game with nobody else close. I even went cherry tapping with the tradition branch and very little else meaningfully contributing to science or production. Didn't matter.

Apparently, having a pact with an AI's enemy really pisses it off, and leads to chain-denouncements. It seems like right now as long as the AI has someone it hates more you can keep most at friendly by simply doing nothing. Not the best diplo design, really.

 

[seasnake]

diplomacy needs more rewards for good relations and more penalties for bad. Like a trade bonus, your routes with a civ become more lucrative the longer you are at peace. Also denouncements need to do something like impact happiness, but if someone denounces you you can declare war for the next 10 turns without the usual penalties (i.e. the other civs won't think you're a warmonger, you're defending your reputation). Also, if you denounce too many civilizations too often your denouncement loses some of it's effect.

Diplomacy needs more meaningful choices, penalties that make you think before you act. Peace should be a viable strategy.

 

[guenzak]

I had the same problem. First game since the patch and tried prince just to try things out. Usually play about 2-3 levels higher. Everything was fine...declaired friendship with bismark and askia which worked well because they were friends too. Alexander was also on the same contenent and we all hated him. Then in one turn they went from friends to denouncing me. then the very next turn they both declaired on me. From friends to war in 2 turns??? I'm playing France btw. So we are at war for about 10 turns and during that time first contact was made with Egypt and ottomans. And for both, 2 turn after first contact they denounce me. How can they denounce me two turns after meeting me?

Was loving all the changes anf fixes but now I am totally perplexed by the new AI diplomacy

 

[jagdtigerciv]

Bring back international trade routes!

Also, to the threads topic: i've had a few games so far with varying results. In one case, I developed two best-friend civs (Egypt and Greece) who would literally denounce any civ I would denounce the following turn. We shared defensive pacts.

Another game however, I found myself in your shoes, continually denounced and found myself friendly civs no where to be found. In this game, however, I noticed I was at the top score, with a large standing army, tons of culture, science, etc.

I may be looking into things too much, but I think score and "power" (in general) has a lot of to do with it. Civs always fear whose number one. I've noticed this among the AI too, they will begin denouncing the top score AI like it's nobody's business.

 

[Mumin]

I play archipelago maps if I want a peaceful game. It made wars really rare, even on the highest difficulty settings pre-patch. I haven't played so much post-patch yet though to see if it still works.

 

[lschnarch]

Clearly King is too much for you.. Try Prince. It's my prefered difficulty level.

I strongly recommend you to stop giving good advices when you don't know about which levels others are reporting.

Yeah, this appears to be a side effect of the AI trying to win for themselves. I think there was a discussion somewhere about whether to make AI more fun or more competitive. I mean, if you play multiplayer, you have zero chance of winning a peaceful victory. Some would consider this AI as a step toward being more human.

The AI is in no way "more human", it is just completely erratic.

I just won a blowout game on emperor w/o signing any pacts at all. Nobody ever declared on me because I was on my own continent and didn't piss anyone off. 1901 space game with nobody else close. I even went cherry tapping with the tradition branch and very little else meaningfully contributing to science or production. Didn't matter.

Apparently, having a pact with an AI's enemy really pisses it off, and leads to chain-denouncements. It seems like right now as long as the AI has someone it hates more you can keep most at friendly by simply doing nothing. Not the best diplo design, really.

The problem is that the AI seems to be more random than ever.

I am currently having a game (emperor/huge/continents) in which I am friend with everybody (turn 232).
I haven't fired a single shot in this game except against barbarians.

Have I changed my playstyle? No.
The same nations which in the previous game conveted my lands while being half a continent away, denouncing me in turn 50 and declaring war in turn 100, now are actively searching my friendship.
The worst to happen to me until now was to have to pay a premium for research agreements.

Spoiler :

As I said, I am not playing in any way different from the other games. It seems that just the AI is so random, that the one game you may play peacefully, the other game you have to defend yourself against each and everybody.
Unfortunately, you will learn about this only after having played and invested some hours into the game.

This is a bad design decision, since the warmonger always can trigger wars by himself.
The builder, though, is taken hostage by something behind the screesn which he cannot influence.

 

[attackfighter]

If you could stay peaceful all game it wouldn't be a challenge, nor would it be realistic. I think early game should be very volatile with almost constant war, it would be very fun and it would allow the AI to expand more thus making the late game more interesting (since you'd have real competition)

 

[Zyxpsilon]

As I said, I am not playing in any way different from the other games. It seems that just the AI is so random, that the one game you may play peacefully, the other game you have to defend yourself against each and everybody.
Unfortunately, you will learn about this only after having played and invested some hours into the game.

This is a bad design decision, since the warmonger always can trigger wars by himself.
The builder, though, is taken hostage by something behind the screesn which he cannot influence.

Fair enough. You may very well be right.
In a sense, we get to have some emotional reactions from an algorithmic diplo wreck of a ride that was once too silly to even stage a decent opposition in an apocalyptic war.
Invasion is the spoon feeding call to the weak, even if unaware of the dangers that lurk in the shadows of a NEUTRAL tag right before our eyes.
Trigger happy AIs - i'd say.

 

[Sneaks]

I have noticed the AI goes bonkers on you if your army gets too small or your score gets too large. It does not want to be peaceful with you if you are going to stop it from being the first to victory, of if you look like easy pickings. In the games I have played, it has been relatively easy to maintain several good relations so long as I was neither the best or worst civ.

 

[bryanw1995]

I just won a blowout game on emperor w/o signing any pacts at all. Nobody ever declared on me because I was on my own continent and didn't piss anyone off. 1901 space game with nobody else close. I even went cherry tapping with the tradition branch and very little else meaningfully contributing to science or production. Didn't matter.

Apparently, having a pact with an AI's enemy really pisses it off, and leads to chain-denouncements. It seems like right now as long as the AI has someone it hates more you can keep most at friendly by simply doing nothing. Not the best diplo design, really.

yeah, I just miscalculated on an immortal game. nappy was my friend all game, he helped me take out darius and hiawatha, but songhai got him to go aggressive on me and I wasn't smart enough to sneak attack him first. now all of my former allies except monty are negative towards me. fortunately, I'm about to get 8 cossacks upgraded to tanks and loads of mechs...steamroller time!