Peloponnesian War Scenario Development Thread

[Greek Stud]

I would say the Macedonian capital is Pella.

I have a very good map of Leagues during the war.
(431-404BC)
Nuetral States were: Crete, Argos, Achaia, cities north and left of Delphi, and coastal cities of Epirus.

Peloponnesian League: Sparta, Corinth (after Korkyra incident), Megara (after Athenian trade embargo), Plataia and Boiotia region, Macedonia, Ithika.

Delian League: Attika (Athens & Dekelia), Euboia Island, Delphi, Southern coastal Epirus, Thassaly, Potidaia (Halkidiki region), Aigospotamai, Byzantium, Kyzikos, Arginusai, Ephesos, Miletos, Rhodes, Thera, Melos, Delos, Naxos, Samos, Chios, Lesvos, Limnos, Thasos, Korkyra (after intervention) Cephallonia, Zakinthos.

The Delian League was made to defend Greeks from the Persians. Athens was seen as a bully and Imperical even having to fight City-States on its own League. The League was created for defense purposes, but Athens abused it to retort attacks caused through the tensions with Sparta, and cities in Attika asking for Sparta to throw the Athenians out (because of bulling).

Governments:
Athens: Democratic/Imperical
Sparta: Oligarchic Rule

Eras:
The Archidamian War (431-421)
Years of Truce (421-413) Syracuse insident against Athens
The Ionian or Dekelean War (413-404) cities in Asia Minor join Sparta, Athens vitorious somewhat humiliated mostly. By the end they join the Peloponnesian League.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Nice list, Greek Stud.

Just one point; near as I can tell, you're using a mixture of traditional English spellings, Latinizations of (ancient) Greek ones and transliterations of Modern Greek forms, with the odd typo thrown in for good measure.

Do we have a policy on what kind of names are going to be used in the final scenario? My vote's for traditional English (Athens, Thessaly, and so on), but what I'm primarily concerned about is consistency - I do have a beef with scenarios that are unsystematic in this regard.

 

[Greek Stud]

That's true, it should be consistent. I have a tendency to spell it the way I myself, like it best. Some of them I just spell different so that Americans and other English speakers, pronounce the words the way they are pronounced. I wouldn't say the Greek spellings would be pronounced like Ancient Greek. My Mother teaches us Ancient Greek, and there are pronounciations that you can't even phonically spell to make that sound. But hey, let's say I get my English spelling down right, then I'll work on phonitics.

 

[Greek Stud]

Hey during the end of the war, was there not a plague in Athens? Are we gunna add that in too?

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

If the Peloponnesian War started in 434BC or so and Archelaus' reign start in 413BC, I'd reckon the capital of Macedonia then would be Aegae as that would have been the capital for most of the war and at the beginning of the war.

 

[Amenhotep7]

We' should wait for Kryten's bit on the capital...

 

[Amenhotep7]

KRyten-

Any word on the capital? And how go those units??? It's been a while...Thought I'd ask...

 

[Greek Stud]

Shh It's too quite in here.

Is Persia going to be included in the Anatolia region? I'm kinda bored of that civ. but since they were there during the war, I was just wondering.

 

[Xen]

yes, of course they are going to be there, so is rome, carthage, Eturia, and some other assorted groups

 

[Amenhotep7]

What Xen said...Of course Persia!!!

 

[The Last Conformist]

A Peloponnesian War without Persia would likely have ended quite differently ... and while I don't imagine it's possible to get AI Persia to send big sacks of darici Spartawards, they not being in the scenario would just be unthinkable.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Yes, it'd leave a huge gap there...

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by Greek Stud
Shh It's too quite in here.

Not any more.

Aegae, first capital of the ancient kingdom of Macedonia, lying at the northern foothills of the Pieria Mountains, northern Greece. The site, partly covered by the modern village of Vergina, includes a large cemetery and numerous Macedonian tombs, one of which is thought to be that of Philip II of Macedonia, the father of Alexander the Great. Among the most spectacular finds are a painted tomb and two royal tombs (c. 350-325 BC) discovered unplundered in 1977 and 1978 by the Greek archaeologist Manolis Andronikos. Until 1977 most scholars had identified Aegae with the modern Greek town of Edessa, but the finds made since then have confirmed Vergina as the site of the ancient Macedonian capital.
(Microsoft Encarta Reference Library 2002)

I believe that Pella (the birthplace of Alexander the Great's dad, Philip II, in 382 BC) became the capital of Macedon well after the Peloponnesian War.
Macedon was composed of a bunch of quarelling tribes at this time, and their king Perdiccas, the son of another Alexander, was busy trying to stop his brother, yet another Philip, from regaining the throne (the Macedonians didn't have much imagination when it came to boys names. ).

The Athenian plague broke out in 430 BC, just one year after the war had started, and lasted for couple of years, carrying off perhaps as many as a third of the population. Athens also suffered from another great loss of life in the last year of the war in 404 BC, when she was besieged and starving (there may have been another minor plauge at this time....there often is during sieges).

For an overview of the war between 431 to 404 BC, I yet again STRONGLY urge everybody of have a read of this one page on this site:-

http://www.warhorsesim.com/epw_hist.html

....and if you don't, then I'll post the whole bloody thing here, and flood the next 2 or 3 pages!

(Oh, and I should have some units ready for posting fairly soonish. )

 

[Amenhotep7]

I like that last bit, Kryten! I'll read that...Soonish times 2=...
Wait a minnit! You meant for posting! As in preview? That won't take long!

 

[Amenhotep7]

I also must ask: What on earth will we do for civ-unique units? Will they all have UUs?

 

[The Last Conformist]

I don't think GAs make much sense in a scenario covering some three decades. Simply leave them out.

And there's no need that every minor power has its own units, is there? Let's have Spartan Hoplites, Athenian Hoplites, and perhaps also Theban Hoplites and Perioeci Hoplites, but let all other Greeks use a single "generic" Hoplite.

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
I don't think GAs make much sense in a scenario covering some three decades. Simply leave them out.

That means no Wonder either (which seems normal for such a small preiod of time) for they could start GA too.

 

[Amenhotep7]

LC, ya make a point...But Kryten is making some other units like Armed Helot, Thessalonian Cavalry, etc...

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
I also must ask: What on earth will we do for civ-unique units? Will they all have UUs?

What The Last Conformist says makes sense, but remember it is possible to have several 'flavour units' with their own unique stats that do NOT create 'Golden Ages' by simply not giving them that ability in the editor (although having 'Golden Ages' early in the scenario for some or maybe all the different factions/nations might be a good idea, because when these run out after 20 turns it will reinforce the feeling of 'weariness' of this long, long conflict).

To be honest, I'm not even sure which civs/factions/nations will actually be in the scenario.
Could you Amenhotep7 post a full list of each one?
Then we could all contribute to discuss each of their capital/leader/army/alliences.

In the meantime, here is something to consider.
As I posted in the "Alternative Units" thread, almost all armies in history have consisted of the following:-
* elite troops (in this period, all on foot)
* heavy foot troops
* light missile armed skirmishers
* mounted troops
* siege weapons
* various ships
(and Civ3 adds an extra fictitious type: defensive foot troops)

In spite what Civ3 thinks, Hoplites WERE NOT 'defensive' foot troops. The Greeks were happily using these to attack and capture cities for some 600 years, from 900 BC to 300 BC, before they changed to Macedonian pike phalanxes, which proved to be superior.

Question : how do you intend to implement Hoplites within the scenario?
You have two choices:-
1) give the heavy foot troops of each nation an attack factor roughly equal to their defence factor, and make them simultaneously both offensive AND defensive, thus scrapping the artificial 'defensive infantry' unit class (which I personally prefer)
....OR....
2) keep the units classes as in the normal game, and just use offensive Hoplite animations instead of Swordsmen (thus keeping the concept of 'defensive' infantry)

Either way, I just make unit animations. It's up to you what stats, abilities and names they will use within the scenario.

So just post your required civ list, and we can then find animations to fit each unit.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Well, we'll have the (more or less ) Kingdom of Macedon
Sparta, and dedicated allies
Argolis
Attica, united with places under strict Athenian Control
Early Roman Republic
Several Italian Powers (LAtins and Etruscans included)
Other areas of Delian League
Thebes
Crete
Syracuseans/Sicilians
Cyrene
Xen has been adding/deleting civs, so you'd get a better answer outta him.

BTW, Xen. Don't feel rushed, but which territory is fleshed out? I've gotten some of the civpedia done![dance]