The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
That sounds like a good idea, Louis.
Peloponnesian War Scenario Development Thread
- Thread starter Amenhotep7
- Start date
_Philospher_
Balancing the cranium
If possible I suggest making wheat a strategic resource, maybe call it "wheat surplus" or something. Then have it so Hoplites need wheat in order to be built. Then put this wheat surplus under Spartan/Athenian colony cities who historically provided wheat for their state. (Sparta imported it's wheat from Syracuse and Athens from colonies beyone Byzantium, I think). It will give the game more of a strategic feel and also give more of a purpose in capturing cities like Syracuse, Byzantium, ect...Just my opinion.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Hmm...Nice idea, _Philosopher_...What does everyone else think of this suggestion?
If you move three tiles per movement point on a road, then, yes, this is high. But you could lower this number to two, or even to one.
This way roads are just valuable for transportation of goods, not huge armies. I don't think the ancient greeks were that famed for building roads, wasn't that some other mediterranean people? 
I think that the harbor (or at least the part that lets you trade, food and veteran ships can come at some other building) should be very cheap in this scenario, and almost all cities should have it from the start. Anyone trying to trade overland at this point in time was seen as a madman.
edit: I like _Philosopher_s idea.
Kryten
Smeee heeeeed
I like Louis', Last Conformist's, AND _Philospher_'s ideas.... 
....but I'm not so sure about mrtn's one.
Reducing the road movement bonus to 2, or even 1, would certainly slow down the cavalry. But might it not also make heavy infantry difficult if not impossible to get into action?
("Well, it would make sea power important, and the war did drag on for 27 years Kryten!"
)
True. I'll shut up.
....but I'm not so sure about mrtn's one.
Reducing the road movement bonus to 2, or even 1, would certainly slow down the cavalry. But might it not also make heavy infantry difficult if not impossible to get into action?
("Well, it would make sea power important, and the war did drag on for 27 years Kryten!"
)True. I'll shut up.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Lowering the road movement multiplier to one would still allow Cav and skirmishers to dart across mountains at full speed ... I rather like the idea!
The Wheat idea is nifty, but I thought Sparta got enough wheat from Laconia and Messenia? They'd didn't have that large an urban population to feed, and if overseas imports were critical, how come they survived, apparently without problem, a couple decades of almost unchallenged Athenian naval superiority?
One could have couple Wheat resources in the southern Peloponnese; a sneaky Athenian player will try and disconnect them via amphibious raids, perhaps freeing some Helots in the processes.
The Wheat idea is nifty, but I thought Sparta got enough wheat from Laconia and Messenia? They'd didn't have that large an urban population to feed, and if overseas imports were critical, how come they survived, apparently without problem, a couple decades of almost unchallenged Athenian naval superiority?
One could have couple Wheat resources in the southern Peloponnese; a sneaky Athenian player will try and disconnect them via amphibious raids, perhaps freeing some Helots in the processes.
_Philospher_
Balancing the cranium
I see your point Last Conformist, with the Sparta-wheat situation. However I did see some where (History Channel had a documentation on the Spartans) that one of the main reasons the Athenians launched an assualt on Syracuse was to keep Sparta from a large surplus of wheat. Then again i could be wrong.
Edit: I agree on reducing the movment points on roads.
Edit: I agree on reducing the movment points on roads.
Yep.Originally posted by Kryten
...("Well, it would make sea power important, and the war did drag on for 27 years Kryten!"
...
I think that infantry in a ship should move faster than cavalry on a road, and you can make it like this either by lowering the Road Movement Multiplier (or RMM
) or boosting the ship movement.Oh, and we could have different types of wheat. Some could give ordinary hoplites, some could give mercenaries, and so on.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
What about making Wheat a luxury (when you don't have food, you aren't very happy)?
I think I like the road idea. It would make it efficiant to cross through hills (you could even consider making Hoplites wheeled beause of their heavy armor, meaning they would need a road to cross through mountain passes).
I think I like the road idea. It would make it efficiant to cross through hills (you could even consider making Hoplites wheeled beause of their heavy armor, meaning they would need a road to cross through mountain passes).
_Philospher_
Balancing the cranium
Actually, it maybe better to make wheat a luxury as Louis said and also require it for hoplites (maybe calvary and other troops?).
As for making different types of wheat for certain hoplites, in my opinion I don't see a point.
As for making different types of wheat for certain hoplites, in my opinion I don't see a point.
Greek Stud
Prince
I think the Parthanon hasn't been built yet. I believe it happened under Pericles, after the Persian raid. So that would place it after this was and after Alexander the Great's conquests.
How about having a weaker type of spearman/hoplite available at first then with technology advances of work copper and iron you can build UU Hoplites. Seige weapons can be a different path for you to choose, naval seige, and possibly linking luxuries/reasources to certain UU and seige between leagues.
For example, Athens and Sparta may have copper. Thebes (DL) and Corinth (PL) could have iron. Thermapylae (DL) and Mycenae (PL) could have marble. The Cyclades (DL) and the Ionian islands (PL) could have wines. Syracuse (PL) and Byzantion (DL) could have wool or wheat, something that would effect the population count. Macedonia (PL) and Troy (DL) could have bronze. Graecia and Cyprus might have black marble. Chios, Samos, Rhodes and Crete could have silk. Incense and cotton could come from Egypt. Dyes somewhere near the Sea of Marmara where trade was flourishing. It's all up to you all.
How about having a weaker type of spearman/hoplite available at first then with technology advances of work copper and iron you can build UU Hoplites. Seige weapons can be a different path for you to choose, naval seige, and possibly linking luxuries/reasources to certain UU and seige between leagues.
For example, Athens and Sparta may have copper. Thebes (DL) and Corinth (PL) could have iron. Thermapylae (DL) and Mycenae (PL) could have marble. The Cyclades (DL) and the Ionian islands (PL) could have wines. Syracuse (PL) and Byzantion (DL) could have wool or wheat, something that would effect the population count. Macedonia (PL) and Troy (DL) could have bronze. Graecia and Cyprus might have black marble. Chios, Samos, Rhodes and Crete could have silk. Incense and cotton could come from Egypt. Dyes somewhere near the Sea of Marmara where trade was flourishing. It's all up to you all.
what in bloody hell are you talking about Greek?!?!
The persian "raid" was the first Persian war, and the parthanon was built after the second Persian war, during the pretimes, and during the Peloponesian war- Alexanders conquests didnt happen untill aomewhere around 50-70 years AFTER the Peolponesian war, the GLory of Athens, and the construction of the Parthanon was completed!
-----------------------
and as a side note there is NO Mycenae in this scenario! none at all! the glory of Mycenae was lef tin the tails, as the cityt had been mor eor less abondoned for centuries by the time of the peloponesian war- which is why you dont see it on any poliytical maps of the time, and having silk is absured!
your not proving your self very informed on greek history...
The persian "raid" was the first Persian war, and the parthanon was built after the second Persian war, during the pretimes, and during the Peloponesian war- Alexanders conquests didnt happen untill aomewhere around 50-70 years AFTER the Peolponesian war, the GLory of Athens, and the construction of the Parthanon was completed!
-----------------------
and as a side note there is NO Mycenae in this scenario! none at all! the glory of Mycenae was lef tin the tails, as the cityt had been mor eor less abondoned for centuries by the time of the peloponesian war- which is why you dont see it on any poliytical maps of the time, and having silk is absured!
your not proving your self very informed on greek history...
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
The Peleponesian War refers to the fight between Athens and Sparta after the Persian war in which Sparta eventually won (however, their victory was short lived as their empire collapsed and the remaining time was devoted to "balance of power" until Macedon conquered them all).
The Parthenon was built at the "Cold War" building up to the Peleponesian War. The Delian League (built by Athens to protect against Persia) had its treasury moved back to Athens and a building program was initiated (this is where the Parthenon and Longwalls were built) with the money from the Treasury. Some of the league members felt that Athens was no longer needed to protect them from Persia so they tried to leave (but Athens took action to prevent this and became an Empire). This increased the tension that eventually errupted into the Peleponesian War.
The Parthenon was built at the "Cold War" building up to the Peleponesian War. The Delian League (built by Athens to protect against Persia) had its treasury moved back to Athens and a building program was initiated (this is where the Parthenon and Longwalls were built) with the money from the Treasury. Some of the league members felt that Athens was no longer needed to protect them from Persia so they tried to leave (but Athens took action to prevent this and became an Empire). This increased the tension that eventually errupted into the Peleponesian War.
Runamok Monkey
Warlord
- Joined
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- 171
oh, cruddy. 22 pages already??? Look with my internet connection, it'll take 27 years to get through it all. So could someone kindly tell me if the Spartan helots will have any bearing on the game. I'd love to be able to emancipate some of those poor chums from those Spartan punks!!! (so they could slave for us . . . the sinners of philosophy)
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
There'll be an "armed Helot" unit, but no liberation.
Runamok Monkey
Warlord
- Joined
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doh!
Runamok Monkey
Warlord
- Joined
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i am seriously interested in this getting done. but clearly, i'm not alone, amenhotep. with such a great volume of input, this scenario can't miss.
Runamok Monkey
Warlord
- Joined
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but amenhotep, isn't there a way to use emancipation as a strategy to defeat the spartans? say that the spartan cities cannot build workers, but that they begin with a whole bunch of helots. helot attrition could be a fun strategy to employ, since what would spartan social infrastructure be without them? and later, we could have a flavor tech that allows sparta to upgrade helots to weaker phalanxes.
EDIT:to make game balance work, say that if a worker can be made in five turns and it takes him three turns to build a road on grassland, we could make it such that it would take ten helots to build road on grassland in ten turns. or do you think this is unseemly
EDIT:to make game balance work, say that if a worker can be made in five turns and it takes him three turns to build a road on grassland, we could make it such that it would take ten helots to build road on grassland in ten turns. or do you think this is unseemly
Runamok Monkey
Warlord
- Joined
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also, helots could cost sparta nothing. also, every faction should be able to enslave!!!
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
This scenario'll come out first as PTW then C3C, so for now, no enslave ability. I don't think limited helots is good, since the helots carried on for many generations. What I think should happen is that by one city in Messenia, there should be a resource that is necessary for building helots, which'll make the AI focus on liberating Messenia. Good ideas? Yes? No?
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